2021 Cost Cap Rumours and Speculation

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littlebigcat
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Re: 2021 Cost Cap Rumours and Speculation

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Just_a_fan wrote:
13 Oct 2022, 23:20
Here's a thought: is it still cheating if everyone does it?
In reality only four teams could, so yeah

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Sieper
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Re: 2021 Cost Cap Rumours and Speculation

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chrisc90 wrote:
13 Oct 2022, 22:07
Is there any truth in the rumours that Toto/Mercedes are prepared to spend more than the budget cap if RB only get a fine?
Has he actually said that? Because that would automatically prove malice and make any overspent in 2022 or any coming year a major infringement by default.

littlebigcat
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Re: 2021 Cost Cap Rumours and Speculation

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You know what's really funny, if Red Bull get fined for breaching the cost cap, that fine is exempt from the cost cap.

If the result of the breach is just a fine, that is a free license to breach the cap

Mosin123
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Re: 2021 Cost Cap Rumours and Speculation

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Will ferrari, merc, mcclaren and co be happy with just a fine? Could teams protest if just a fine? Even more so if its true with regards to Neway, who everybody says and gives all credit to him for the car?

I dont think they will, Ferrari will mostly likely want redbull dq'ed, merc will mostly want last season points deducted... The other teams might want to finish higher, drivers too..

F1 cant keep sweeping every thing under the table and they did say they aill be strict with the financial regs even if it ment dqing teams from champinshios, think it was Brawn? Not to sure

I dont think this messy situation will be settled with just a fine, even sponsors are having digs at f1 n redbull, every body will question its integrity at a time when everybody already feels it has none.

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2021 Cost Cap Rumours and Speculation

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chrisc90 wrote:
13 Oct 2022, 23:33
Good question! If you apply The same punishment then everyone is in the same boat.

I did originally say it’s a risk Vw reward scenario with how the penalty’s are structured, but a lot of people were quick to shoot me down
I was being flippant. Of course it's still cheating if everyone does it.
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2021 Cost Cap Rumours and Speculation

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littlebigcat wrote:
14 Oct 2022, 00:48
You know what's really funny, if Red Bull get fined for breaching the cost cap, that fine is exempt from the cost cap.

If the result of the breach is just a fine, that is a free license to breach the cap
Daft, isn't it? A fine isn't a punishment if it doesn't affect the next year's performance.
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

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ringo
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Re: 2021 Cost Cap Rumours and Speculation

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Wil992 wrote:
13 Oct 2022, 20:46
tpe wrote:
13 Oct 2022, 20:02
Sieper wrote:
13 Oct 2022, 16:38
the problematic part is if Newey has other costs (not incurred due to him alone) within that agreement between him as a contractor and RB, maybe other people working for him in his company, computational analysis he buys from 3rd parties etc. those kind of things) those are not directly Newey himself and those must be included in the cost cap (excluded from the exclusion).
Finally a logical explanation!
Yea, this is a thing I was thinking about too. I’m not sure where the line is on this. If he has a personal service company that bills RB for his time, that’s clearly allowed as one of the top 3 earners and can be excluded from the cap.
But what if that company hires another employee? Does that mean it immediately becomes just another supplier and therefore not able to be excluded? If not, where is the line? Could his ltd co hire the entire aero dept and call that one of the top 3 earners?
My feeling is that because the allowable exclusions refers specifically to individuals, the minute there’s more than 1 person, they can’t be on the list. I’m sure that’s the intention of the rules, at least.
Since his company more than likely would be limited liability.. the business would not be with the man Adrian Newey.. It would be with the company. A ltd company is a separate entity from its owners. So even if Newey was the sole person in that company.. the FIA will not see the company as Adrain Newey, it would be seen as the contractor racing services.
So we would not even have to get into the nitty gritty with contractor staff.
Anyhow this is just a rumour. The breach may well be something simple and internal to redbull itself. Maybe they just shifted some of the costs to Alpha Tauri.
Alpha spends 80 million and RB 210 million.. 290 million for both teams.. and 145 each on the books :mrgreen:
For Sure!!

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ispano6
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Re: 2021 Cost Cap Rumours and Speculation

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dans79 wrote:
12 Oct 2022, 15:32
ispano6 wrote:
12 Oct 2022, 06:05
What was/is James Allison's salary and why isn't he part of the cost cap? How is this different to Newey?
I don't know, you tell me! Also, why do you keep insisting that others think is different than Newey?
It's not my fault you aren't understanding the point that is being made! It's officially known that James Allison is CTO of a non-F1-racing Mercedes company. But he has been present at races, talks about Mercedes upgrades that worked and didn't, and was wearing the official Mercedes team wear when present at the races. He is very much still "involved". But from the articles that have been written about him, he isn't involved. He's been quoted as saying Toto found a way for him to be involved. Seems to me all the Mercedes fans here are turning a blind eye to this arrangement as if there is nothing peculiar. I wonder how such an arrangement is possible? Surely other teams should inquire Mercedes.

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dans79
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Re: 2021 Cost Cap Rumours and Speculation

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ispano6 wrote:
14 Oct 2022, 02:36
dans79 wrote:
12 Oct 2022, 15:32
ispano6 wrote:
12 Oct 2022, 06:05
What was/is James Allison's salary and why isn't he part of the cost cap? How is this different to Newey?
I don't know, you tell me! Also, why do you keep insisting that others think is different than Newey?
It's not my fault you aren't understanding the point that is being made! It's officially known that James Allison is CTO of a non-F1-racing Mercedes company. But he has been present at races, talks about Mercedes upgrades that worked and didn't, and was wearing the official Mercedes team wear when present at the races. He is very much still "involved". But from the articles that have been written about him, he isn't involved. He's been quoted as saying Toto found a way for him to be involved. Seems to me all the Mercedes fans here are turning a blind eye to this arrangement as if there is nothing peculiar. I wonder how such an arrangement is possible? Surely other teams should inquire Mercedes.
If you are so sure, prove it and submit your findings to the FIA. Until then its nothing but your opinion!
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ispano6
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Re: 2021 Cost Cap Rumours and Speculation

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dans79 wrote:
14 Oct 2022, 02:42
If you are so sure, prove it and submit your findings to the FIA. Until then its nothing but your opinion!
It's not my opinion, what I've mentioned are all published articles and quotes publicly available. Wolff's special advisor Sheila-Ann Rao probably had a hand in structuring the Mercedes operation and is now conveniently Interim FIA Secretary General for Motor Sport, now that is my gut opinion.

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dans79
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Re: 2021 Cost Cap Rumours and Speculation

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ispano6 wrote:
14 Oct 2022, 02:49
dans79 wrote:
14 Oct 2022, 02:42
If you are so sure, prove it and submit your findings to the FIA. Until then its nothing but your opinion!
It's not my opinion, what I've mentioned are all published articles and quotes publicly available. Wolff's special advisor Sheila-Ann Rao probably had a hand in structuring the Mercedes operation and is now conveniently Interim FIA Secretary General for Motor Sport, now that is my gut opinion.
Again if you are so sure that Merc is somehow violating the rules, then find supporting evidence and submit it to the FIA.
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RZS10
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Re: 2021 Cost Cap Rumours and Speculation

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IF the RB breach is about Newey and how he is connected to the team and the FIA found out, wouldn't they also have checked diligently how people like Allison are involved and whether the financial constellation was acceptable under the budget cap?

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Shakeman
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Re: 2021 Cost Cap Rumours and Speculation

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ispano6 wrote:
14 Oct 2022, 02:36
dans79 wrote:
12 Oct 2022, 15:32
ispano6 wrote:
12 Oct 2022, 06:05
What was/is James Allison's salary and why isn't he part of the cost cap? How is this different to Newey?
I don't know, you tell me! Also, why do you keep insisting that others think is different than Newey?
It's not my fault you aren't understanding the point that is being made! It's officially known that James Allison is CTO of a non-F1-racing Mercedes company. But he has been present at races, talks about Mercedes upgrades that worked and didn't, and was wearing the official Mercedes team wear when present at the races. He is very much still "involved". But from the articles that have been written about him, he isn't involved. He's been quoted as saying Toto found a way for him to be involved. Seems to me all the Mercedes fans here are turning a blind eye to this arrangement as if there is nothing peculiar. I wonder how such an arrangement is possible? Surely other teams should inquire Mercedes.
It’s really not difficult to understand how Allison could be involved. JA will have a defined daily rate and the F1 project can be billed for his time engaged on the project. As long as there’s a paper trail and accurate time recording I don’t see what the issue would be?

Some people seem to be forgetting the all the teams’ books have been audited by forensic accountants, so it’s time for Mr Occam to get his razor out, there is clearly no issue with how Mercedes accounted for JA’s time on the project. It’s all above board.

mendis
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Re: 2021 Cost Cap Rumours and Speculation

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Shakeman wrote:
14 Oct 2022, 03:28
Some people seem to be forgetting the all the teams’ books have been audited by forensic accountants, so it’s time for Mr Occam to get his razor out, there is clearly no issue with how Mercedes accounted for JA’s time on the project. It’s all above board.
This is incorrect. By default nobody hires Forensic Accountants. You only hire them to conduct an investigation of what has been submitted when the auditors smell if the books are cooked. They are like crime detectives, just that their expertise is finance. FIA in their statement has said, they did not conduct any investigation and has only audited the submissions, specifically addressing the rumours about Forensic Accountants.

zibby43
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Re: 2021 Cost Cap Rumours and Speculation

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The punishment must have teeth.