2021 Cost Cap Rumours and Speculation

[chrisc90]

@Just a fan - Agreed, it is almost never ever going to happen the drivers losing their points. It would take some SERIOUS wrong-doings for a whole team to be excluded from a full season. That in itself would probably open up a whole can of worms, legal challenges and what not. All that's likely to happen is some people will stick another * beside Max's name for his first title because the team were found in breach of the rules. Probably no different to how some fans feel now and still cant let go of the fact. The same people will also be claiming that Lewis will be a true 8x WDC..... (but thats a discussion that's more geared on social media than a decent forum like this)


@ mwillems - I see your point....spend a bit more in order to keep the big bosses happy and the sponsors etc. However, I think Max and his driving speaks for itself. A lot of people would probably see that he is up there with the best talent on the grid....if not THE best in his era of drivers. That in itself, and his strong previous career will always bring lots of interest. This was the Verstappen that had 2 top teams fighting for his signature when he got into F1....Mercedes were after him aswell don't forget.

If you look back at the 2021 season on a whole, and the statistics that Max managed to rack up, they are some pretty mighty stats, even if you exclude the last race and the controversy around it. He lead more laps than the whole grid put together, on the podium with every race he finished etc. Even if you take away his titles, I think that would sure make the big bosses think that the guy means business.

[chrisc90]

It's rumored his new contract also has a performance exit clause!

I seriously cant see that clause ever being triggered, if it exists. I mean I did make a lot of notes about him in the post above. RB would be stupid to try and replace Max, even within the next 5 years at least. Arguably the best driver on the grid at present.

[mwillems]

I'm not suggesting what the FIA would do or that they'd take a title, just that it is possible that getting Max even one title is enough to keep him at the team and to satisfy the big bosses. Even if they have 2 titles reduced to one and have a future season ruined, is it worth it?

It's not hard to argue it is, unfortunately.
I suspect if you'd said to them you'll spend two seasons getting back your pace but get max 2 drivers titles, they take it, pay a $50m fine, lost CFD, Wind Tunnel, some budget and dance naked in the paddock every race weekend in '23.

you mean something like this?

https://f1-insider.com/en/verstappen-re ... ct-clause/

“Yes, there is a performance clause. I don’t want to go into details, but it more or less says that Max can compete for race wins and the world championship on his own merits. If he can do that, his contract is extended. If not, he would be free.”

It's rumored his new contract also has a performance exit clause!

Yes, exactly that. Good find. If that is recent, i.e. the past couple of years and accurate, then that alone could well justify (To Red Bull) their behaviour. Without Max, everything changes for RB.

[dans79]

It's rumored his new contract also has a performance exit clause!

I seriously cant see that clause ever being triggered, if it exists. I mean I did make a lot of notes about him in the post above. RB would be stupid to try and replace Max, even within the next 5 years at least. Arguably the best driver on the grid at present.

It's not about Max being replaced, it's about Max wanting out of the contract, because the car isn't competitive!

[Mosin123]

@Just a fan - Agreed, it is almost never ever going to happen the drivers losing their points. It would take some SERIOUS wrong-doings for a whole team to be excluded from a full season. That in itself would probably open up a whole can of worms, legal challenges and what not. All that's likely to happen is some people will stick another * beside Max's name for his first title because the team were found in breach of the rules. Probably no different to how some fans feel now and still cant let go of the fact. The same people will also be claiming that Lewis will be a true 8x WDC..... (but thats a discussion that's more geared on social media than a decent forum like this)


@ mwillems - I see your point....spend a bit more in order to keep the big bosses happy and the sponsors etc. However, I think Max and his driving speaks for itself. A lot of people would probably see that he is up there with the best talent on the grid....if not THE best in his era of drivers. That in itself, and his strong previous career will always bring lots of interest. This was the Verstappen that had 2 top teams fighting for his signature when he got into F1....Mercedes were after him aswell don't forget.

If you look back at the 2021 season on a whole, and the statistics that Max managed to rack up, they are some pretty mighty stats, even if you exclude the last race and the controversy around it. He lead more laps than the whole grid put together, on the podium with every race he finished etc. Even if you take away his titles, I think that would sure make the big bosses think that the guy means business.

And how much of that was won with a car that was having more money spent on it than the rest of the grid.....
Didnt Honer say once that 100 k could be the difference between lifting the title and coming 2nd...
This is why i said both seasons are tarnished.... He won with an illigal car in my opinion.

P.S i agree about Max though.

[mwillems]

@Just a fan - Agreed, it is almost never ever going to happen the drivers losing their points. It would take some SERIOUS wrong-doings for a whole team to be excluded from a full season. That in itself would probably open up a whole can of worms, legal challenges and what not. All that's likely to happen is some people will stick another * beside Max's name for his first title because the team were found in breach of the rules. Probably no different to how some fans feel now and still cant let go of the fact. The same people will also be claiming that Lewis will be a true 8x WDC..... (but thats a discussion that's more geared on social media than a decent forum like this)


@ mwillems - I see your point....spend a bit more in order to keep the big bosses happy and the sponsors etc. However, I think Max and his driving speaks for itself. A lot of people would probably see that he is up there with the best talent on the grid....if not THE best in his era of drivers. That in itself, and his strong previous career will always bring lots of interest. This was the Verstappen that had 2 top teams fighting for his signature when he got into F1....Mercedes were after him aswell don't forget.

If you look back at the 2021 season on a whole, and the statistics that Max managed to rack up, they are some pretty mighty stats, even if you exclude the last race and the controversy around it. He lead more laps than the whole grid put together, on the podium with every race he finished etc. Even if you take away his titles, I think that would sure make the big bosses think that the guy means business.

Yeah but what I'm suggesting is, what if they didn't get those titles and this allowed Max to leave now or in the near future? Is a £2m overspend worth that?.

We assumed they won a title or two, but perhaps they kept the driver and their future title chances for the next 4-10 years. Whilst they go hand in hand, keeping max is worth FAR more than anything the FIA can take away from them, I'd wager - IF those were the stakes.

[dans79]

Didnt Honer say once that 100 k could be the difference between lifting the title and coming 2nd...
This is why i said both seasons are tarnished.... He won with an illigal car in my opinion.

I don't remember that, but i do remember this.

https://www.redbullracing.com/int-en/christians-column

F1 teams will always spend whatever budget they have available to them. Plus an extra 10 percent.

[mwillems]

@Just a fan - Agreed, it is almost never ever going to happen the drivers losing their points. It would take some SERIOUS wrong-doings for a whole team to be excluded from a full season. That in itself would probably open up a whole can of worms, legal challenges and what not. All that's likely to happen is some people will stick another * beside Max's name for his first title because the team were found in breach of the rules. Probably no different to how some fans feel now and still cant let go of the fact. The same people will also be claiming that Lewis will be a true 8x WDC..... (but thats a discussion that's more geared on social media than a decent forum like this)


@ mwillems - I see your point....spend a bit more in order to keep the big bosses happy and the sponsors etc. However, I think Max and his driving speaks for itself. A lot of people would probably see that he is up there with the best talent on the grid....if not THE best in his era of drivers. That in itself, and his strong previous career will always bring lots of interest. This was the Verstappen that had 2 top teams fighting for his signature when he got into F1....Mercedes were after him aswell don't forget.

If you look back at the 2021 season on a whole, and the statistics that Max managed to rack up, they are some pretty mighty stats, even if you exclude the last race and the controversy around it. He lead more laps than the whole grid put together, on the podium with every race he finished etc. Even if you take away his titles, I think that would sure make the big bosses think that the guy means business.

And how much of that was won with a car that was having more money spent on it than the rest of the grid.....
Didnt Honer say once that 100 k could be the difference between lifting the title and coming 2nd...
This is why i said both seasons are tarnished.... He won with an illigal car in my opinion.

P.S i agree about Max though.

Schumacher had two titles where in one season he was strongly suspected to have illegal suspension and in another he crashed out but seemingly took out his title rival to ensure the win (Something he tried again at a later date).

He's a 7 times champion and no one doubts it though, and that's the reality, no one says he's a 5 time champion that was a bit underhand to gain 2 more championships.

[fourmula1]

I was going to butt my nose out of this conversation but something just occurred to me, apologies if it was mentioned before, I might be being very slow.

Is there a situation in which no punishment outweighed the cost of going over budget? What if they didn't go over budget and did not win the title either last or this year. Where would Max be next year if he had another 2 seasons without titles?

Perhaps there is no cost that would stop this being worthwhile to Red Bull, even if they lose the '21 drivers championship.

That is why there needs to be a sporting penalty. Even then, ROI for winning last year cant be undone. Again, the top teams would pay 200m+ (in fines) any day if it meant winning the championships and all of the press, merch, advertisement, etc. $ that comes with that.

[mwillems]

I don't think there is really anything that can stop the teams from seeing the worth of cheating should they wish to, I think I'm coming to idea that the financial regulations do help close the gap from top to bottom by making this an affordable sport for every team, but there could always be stakes that vastly outstrip any deterrent that the FIA can throw in a teams direction.

They are a step in the right direction and they do help, but perhaps we are expecting too much.

I don't think the financial regs are at fault here and the FIA may be in an impossible situation. They help, for sure, but they are but a single approach to limiting teams. Perhaps we need to limit the number of races a team can bring updates, or the number of parts that can be updated as in the winter of 20/21.

[dans79]

I don't think there is really anything that can stop the teams from seeing the worth of cheating should they wish to, I think I'm coming to idea that the financial regulations do help close the gap from top to bottom by making this an affordable sport for every team, but there could always be stakes that vastly outstrip any deterrent that the FIA can throw in a teams direction.

They are a step in the right direction and they do help, but perhaps we are expecting too much.

I don't think the financial regs are at fault here and the FIA may be in an impossible situation. They help, for sure, but they are but a single approach to limiting teams. Perhaps we need to limit the number of races a team can bring updates, or the number of parts that can be updated as in the winter of 20/21.

Imo, the primary issue is that the FIA is a cowardly organization. They never adequately punish people for breaking the rules, regardless of what the rule is. The are always so worried about affecting the show, the race results, the championship results, etc that they don't do their job properly!

Instead of the teams fearing the wrath of the FIA, it's the other way around! Thus teams are always pushing the limits or breaking the rules, they know they will only ever get a slap on the wrist!

[mwillems]

I think I may have finally talked myself over to the cusp of "I'll wait and see what happens next" . About time!

I think I'll continue my disappointment by watching the latest episode of House of the Dragon.

[Sieper]

For the most part it worked. I think from now onwards the top teams will be on a more level playing field.

Maybe it wasn’t a coincidence 2021 was the first year in a long time that there was a fight to the end. And even passed the end. Yes redbull was found to be in a minor breach, whatever that means, perhaps they aren’t as good at accounting as the others, because I see very similar numbers of employed people. Let’s see what FIA comes with. But control will only become more strict and organizations will get better balanced to the limit they all know what it is. That should mean close fights like 2021 and 2022 also promised until Ferrari for a number of reasons, especially after the summer pause, wasn’t quite there anymore,

I expect a few years in which it will become very close and in which overtaking is indeed helped a bit by the ground effect.

[codetower]

Not sure if this is the correct thread for this, apologies if it isn't. I figured it relates to the "how many upgrades" discussion.

Here's a list of the teams' upgrades this year so far. Not sure how accurate it is (I pasted FER/RB/MERC below, but lists other teams as well):

https://scuderiafans.com/list-of-all-f1 ... 22-season/

FERRARI
-Bahrain: progressive evolution of the floor through successive updates during the tests.
-Saudi Arabia: medium-low load rear wing.
-Australia: different design of the central ramp of the diffuser (tested on Friday).
-Imola: /
-Miami: new low-load rear wing.
-Barcelona: floor; diffuser; external aerodynamic elements to the rear brake air intakes; new high load rear wing.
-Monaco: / (possible adjustment of the steering kinematics, not officially confirmed).
-Baku: rearview mirror support.
-Canada: medium load rear wing with higher efficiency; low load beam-wing.
-Silverstone: bodywork (sidepods and engine cover); rear-view mirror supports.
-Austria: /
-France: Venturi channels.
-Hungary: /
-Spa: low-load aerodynamic configuration: rear wing with new single-profile flaps and beam-wings
-Zandvoort: /
-Monza: /
-Singapore: /
-Japan: modifications to the floor, front flow diverter and rear tie rod.

MERCEDES
-Bahrain: sidepods and radiators; nose with a greater excavation in the lower part; car floor (the second version tested in the first free practice session was rejected); new end profiles of the front wing for changes to the aerodynamic balance; refinement of the vertical deflectors of the rear brake ducts
-Saudi Arabia: double specification of low load rear wing;
-Australia: /
-Imola: downwash elements in the center of the car to increase the amount of air to the radiators; re-profiling of mirrors and fairing of the side impact structure for small aero gains; floor updates; raised floor in front of the rear wheels and new external diffuser flaps to increase downforce at the rear.
-Miami: low load straight profile rear wing; low load beam wing; front wing with more efficiency.
-Barcelona: front wing endplate; vortex generator on the keel at the entrance to the floor; external vertical deflectors to the rear brake air intakes.
-Monaco: anterior wing endplate; adaptation of the steering mechanism.
-Baku: rear-view mirror support
-Canada: floor (rejected); rear suspension outer fairing.
-Silverstone: floor and Venturi channels update; front suspension fairing; downash elements in front of the side air intakes; external band of the floor
-Austria: /
-France: back edge of the floor front wheel unit cooling.
-Hungary: /
-Spa: floor; front wing endplate fitting; small change to the endplate and upper flap of the rear wing
-Zandvoort: /
-Monza: front and rear wing upper flaps from low load;
-Singapore: /
-Japan: /

RED BULL
-Bahrain: small changes to the sidepods; front wing refinement; new vertical strips of the rear diffuser.
-Saudi Arabia: enlargement of the front brake cooling air intakes; debut rear wing and low-load beam wing.
-Australia: new lighter front wing endplates with a different diveplane trend.
-Imola: vortex generator at the entrance to the floor; new mechanical components for weight reduction.
-Miami: /
-Barcelona: high-load flap for the front wing; floor.
-Monaco: adaptation of the steering kinematics; increased braking system cooling.
-Baku: front brake cooling updates; floor; external rear diffuser flaps.
-Canada: /
-Silverstone: engine cover; floor; Venturi channels; cooling of the front brake system.
-Austria: Venturi channels grid; cooling vent in the upper part of the engine cover; cooling of the front brake system.
-France: Venturi channels grid; several upper aerodynamic elements external to the rear wheels; beam wing.
-Hungary: beam wing.
-Spa: re-profiling of the sidepods; updates to the rear arm of the lower triangle of the rear suspension.
-Zandvoort: /
-Monza: low load rear wing upper flap
-Singapore: refining of the Venturi channels;
-Japan: /

[Just_a_fan]

Seriously cant see that can of worms of the '21 drivers championship being re-opened. There would be chaos.

Im sure the 2 times where the FIA has imposed a penalty....the crashgate saga with Alonso? and the pink mercedes....Drivers points remained untouched.

No way Max loses either title. The team will be punished but not the drivers. Even back in 2007 when McLaren were thrown out of the championship, the drivers kept their points.

Although i agree for 9 of the teams, For Redbull, it isnt a punishment, Redbull dont care at all about the contructors, never have never will, you can find loads of speaches from Horner and Marko saying exactly that over the years....

Plus, this season and last now has no integrity, both championships tarnished and not a good look for the sport in general, i also dont buy this rubbish harshly punihsing Redbull is bad for the sport, Punishing cheats has always worked in favour of all sports who do it... Punihsing cheats only serves to uphold the integrity of the sport which should be the most important aspect of any sport. with out it, its not sport.

Yes, I know. They've never been worried about the constructor title because they know that the reality is that most people don't know / acre about which manufacturer won the title. They just focus on the driver title. And so does Red Bull. They did it with Seb and they're doing it with Max. and it marks them out as very different to Mercedes, for example, who focus on the constructor title as much, if not more, than the driver title.