2022 Haas F1 Team

[Big Tea]

Are they looking for a new high value pay driver?
As long as the driver and any points cover the cost of entry it does really matter what the finish position is if its not in the top 3 (podium appearances) or dead last.

Just by existing they serve the purpose of being 'Haas' for publicity, so they don't really need to go for the best drivers or pay top whack (or at all) for the driver.

[Jolle]

If you buy parts from others instead of trying to innovate and make something better, you'll never beat them.

Williams switching to the Mercedes gearbox was seen as a positive move by most - even though Williams exists to win races. They were the only ones still using an aluminium case IIRC. Minardi similarly moved much, much further up the grid once they started using Red Bull parts instead of trying to make their own (or even maintain their own Cosworth engines at times).

I think using Ferrari design and Dallara manufacture is the least of HAAS' problems. In all likelihood the design office with ex-Ferrari staff (and using Ferrari simulator and wind tunnel) is much better than what HAAS could do themselves.

If Dallara causes delays, perhaps HAAS could look into setting up their own manufacturing shop, they have no shortage of CNC machines!, but they obviously need to buy autoclaves etc. AFAIK HAAS have never had any issues with the quality of parts made by Dallara.

If I must offer a suggestion, it seems bizarre that the race team is based in England (IIRC) and not in Maranello, Italy. I would move the race team headquarter to Italy to be closer to Ferrari (but HAAS may be loyal to the British staff they are already have on their race teams, even if they do not enjoy most of the benefits of being located amongst the garagiste F1 industry, since they don't design their cars in England and largely do not use the English base of F1 engineers).

I don't see how they don't stay perpetually bottom feeders.

They are nowhere near as far off the pace as the likes of Paul Stoddart's Minardi. Those cars were often 5s/lap off pole, while HAAS is rarely that slow and often qualifies inside the top 15 or sometimes even top 10!

It's all very well to say you should do everything in house as that is the best way to win races, but it doesn't seem realistic. It doesn't take much to go from winning races to bankruptcy as Lotus and Brabham show. So perhaps better, at times, to steady the ship Sauber-style and make more realistic objectives.

Why do Sauber escape criticism when the car they design and build themselves (noting that a lot of the big engineering offices BMW financed were located elsewhere and Sauber don't have them anymore) is really not all that much faster than HAAS' Ferrari-designed, Dallara-built car?!

Williams switchend to Merc gear boxes after an investment group took over from the Williams family.

of course, something of your own design isn't out-right faster then something you buy from a competitor but... buying (performance) parts from, for instance, Ferrari or Mercedes (depending of the team), you will always be behind in development and restrained to the, for you unknown, philosophy of the original designer.

[Big Tea]

If you buy parts from others instead of trying to innovate and make something better, you'll never beat them.

Williams switchend to Merc gear boxes after an investment group took over from the Williams family.

of course, something of your own design isn't out-right faster then something you buy from a competitor but... buying (performance) parts from, for instance, Ferrari or Mercedes (depending of the team), you will always be behind in development and restrained to the, for you unknown, philosophy of the original designer.

Just thinking on this, plus the cashflow part next up.

Now, Haas buy things like rear suspension from Ferrari.

What would be the possibility and legality of Haas developing front suspension (for example, but any part) and 'selling' it to Ferrari, so the have no expense of developing their own? (wink)

Someone like Fiat takes out a sponsorship with Haas of say 30million to bring them up to the limit, and Ferrari have all the money saved on that item to spend else where.

The cars would have to be 'similar' design, but that would not be a problem, would it?

[Jolle]

Williams switchend to Merc gear boxes after an investment group took over from the Williams family.

of course, something of your own design isn't out-right faster then something you buy from a competitor but... buying (performance) parts from, for instance, Ferrari or Mercedes (depending of the team), you will always be behind in development and restrained to the, for you unknown, philosophy of the original designer.

Just thinking on this, plus the cashflow part next up.

Now, Haas buy things like rear suspension from Ferrari.

What would be the possibility and legality of Haas developing front suspension (for example, but any part) and 'selling' it to Ferrari, so the have no expense of developing their own? (wink)

Someone like Fiat takes out a sponsorship with Haas of say 30million to bring them up to the limit, and Ferrari have all the money saved on that item to spend else where.

The cars would have to be 'similar' design, but that would not be a problem, would it?

Sure they wouldn’t do that…
Would almost be the same as having two teams and a single design bureau.

[Zynerji]

Williams switchend to Merc gear boxes after an investment group took over from the Williams family.

of course, something of your own design isn't out-right faster then something you buy from a competitor but... buying (performance) parts from, for instance, Ferrari or Mercedes (depending of the team), you will always be behind in development and restrained to the, for you unknown, philosophy of the original designer.

Just thinking on this, plus the cashflow part next up.

Now, Haas buy things like rear suspension from Ferrari.

What would be the possibility and legality of Haas developing front suspension (for example, but any part) and 'selling' it to Ferrari, so the have no expense of developing their own? (wink)

Someone like Fiat takes out a sponsorship with Haas of say 30million to bring them up to the limit, and Ferrari have all the money saved on that item to spend else where.

The cars would have to be 'similar' design, but that would not be a problem, would it?

Sure they wouldn’t do that…
Would almost be the same as having two teams and a single design bureau.

Isn't that exactly what the RBR-AT relationship is already?

[diffuser]

Williams switchend to Merc gear boxes after an investment group took over from the Williams family.

of course, something of your own design isn't out-right faster then something you buy from a competitor but... buying (performance) parts from, for instance, Ferrari or Mercedes (depending of the team), you will always be behind in development and restrained to the, for you unknown, philosophy of the original designer.

Just thinking on this, plus the cashflow part next up.

Now, Haas buy things like rear suspension from Ferrari.

What would be the possibility and legality of Haas developing front suspension (for example, but any part) and 'selling' it to Ferrari, so the have no expense of developing their own? (wink)

Someone like Fiat takes out a sponsorship with Haas of say 30million to bring them up to the limit, and Ferrari have all the money saved on that item to spend else where.

The cars would have to be 'similar' design, but that would not be a problem, would it?

I agree, their is a problem with the way they're structured right now. If Alfa get bought by Audi, it will leave Haas as the only problem team. I have not heard of any plans for Haas to increase their foot print and remove all their employees from Ferrari.

You could add SAT to that list. In spite of having their own infrastructure, they're another team that has no real ambition to win. They exist solely as driver development team for RBR.

[Big Tea]

Williams switchend to Merc gear boxes after an investment group took over from the Williams family.

of course, something of your own design isn't out-right faster then something you buy from a competitor but... buying (performance) parts from, for instance, Ferrari or Mercedes (depending of the team), you will always be behind in development and restrained to the, for you unknown, philosophy of the original designer.

Just thinking on this, plus the cashflow part next up.

Now, Haas buy things like rear suspension from Ferrari.

What would be the possibility and legality of Haas developing front suspension (for example, but any part) and 'selling' it to Ferrari, so the have no expense of developing their own? (wink)

Someone like Fiat takes out a sponsorship with Haas of say 30million to bring them up to the limit, and Ferrari have all the money saved on that item to spend else where.

The cars would have to be 'similar' design, but that would not be a problem, would it?

Sure they wouldn’t do that…
Would almost be the same as having two teams and a single design bureau.

But only having to design 2/3 of the car as the other 1/3 is shared

[SchuMassa]

Decent race by Magnussen. Shame that Haas boiled Mick's strategy yet again - he was running ahead of KMag all race prior to his last stop. One cannot stop thinking it's deliberate, so that they can justify his exit.

[search]

Decent race by Magnussen. Shame that Haas boiled Mick's strategy yet again - he was running ahead of KMag all race prior to his last stop. One cannot stop thinking it's deliberate, so that they can justify his exit.

they pitted him because it was the easiest way to get past Gasly. The problem was not the strategy, but Schumacher being super slow in the final stint, apparently due to a somewhat damaged car.

Norris was on the same strategy as him, and extended his gap from 1s to 25s in that final part of the race.

[continuum16]

Decent race by Magnussen. Shame that Haas boiled Mick's strategy yet again - he was running ahead of KMag all race prior to his last stop. One cannot stop thinking it's deliberate, so that they can justify his exit.

they pitted him because it was the easiest way to get past Gasly. The problem was not the strategy, but Schumacher being super slow in the final stint, apparently due to a somewhat damaged car.

Norris was on the same strategy as him, and extended his gap from 1s to 25s in that final part of the race.

Mick's strategy was correct; I think the problem was that Nicholas Goatifi attempted a signature "late braking" move and hit Mick which damaged his car. He should have been somewhere between Norris and Tsunoda, which probably would have given him points.

edit: Also it seemed like the car was way better on mediums compared to hards. At the start of the race Magnussen was absolutely nowhere on hards but on mediums he was much more on the pace.

[search]

Also it seemed like the car was way better on mediums compared to hards. At the start of the race Magnussen was absolutely nowhere on hards but on mediums he was much more on the pace.

yeah, I had that impression as well. But same as most others, they only saved one set of mediums for the race, as they expected to need the hards to go to the end.

In the end it wasn't necessary at all, given that Magnussen could do that endless stint on a single set of mediums, but I don't think anyone really believed a one-stopper was possible - at least not that way around. So even if it maybe turned out to be the better strategy in the end, it was a longshot, and the right call not to try that with the better positioned car.

[LHamilton]

I wanna go into the HAAS situation, because it's quite perculiar given the statements that have been made by HAAS (Gene and Gunther) as well as the rumours flying around. I've attached two questions that were given to Guenther in the press meeting in USA. It can be found at the bottom of the text.

Mick's seat is up for grabs and it seems like it's between Mick and Hulkenberg (going by the rumours). 'Leadership' and 'Experience' (not wanting a rookie) are two attributes that has been thrown around by Guenther, and that worries me slightly. Because surely, these are attributes that Magnussen SHOULD have, given his amount of time within F1. But there seems like Guenther is implying that is lacking. But what if it was something else? Could it be that Guenther recognizes that Mick might not be a long term solution? Not because he might not be fast enough, or reliable enough, but because of the desire from Audi (maybe Mercedes if Hamilton retires at some point) to bring Mick to them. German driver in a german team. Makes sense from a marketing perspective. From HAAS perspective, they might be nourishing a driver that might leave them sooner rather than later. And thus they might do the media angle of wanting an experienced driver to not look to foolish.

So with that in mind, if Mick were to re-sign, they might just be able to keep him for maximum of three years. Which I wouldn't call 'long term'. With Audi already confirming the Sauber connection, it might even be as soon as 2024. Do HAAS have that scenario in mind? And is that why they haven't already signed him up and might be looking for a short term option (such as Hulkenberg), to hopefully find a suitable driver to carry them forward long term?

But then again, what does Mick prefer? Audi/Alfa/Sauber at 2024 (at the earliest) and sitting a year out, or signing an another year(s) at HAAS?

If it turns out they ACTUALLY wants leadership and experience due to Magnussen lacking in that department, it's not really a good look for Magnussen. At that point, you might wanna look at replacing Magnussen and perhaps pair up a Hulkenberg (which I would consider to be an upgrade on Magnussen (given that it is 2020 Hulkenberg)) with a more rookie-esque driver, like Mick. Because although Magnussen has decent speed, there probably are people out there that could match him (and surpass him) which Mick already has done on multiple occasions. But replacing Magnussen for 23' won't happen since HAAS most likely won't spend the money to buy him out.

Then you might have to ask if the damage was done when they signed Magnussen for two years. But why would HAAS sign Magnussen for two years, knowing that the another seat would be a rookie-esque driver and thus could not be relied upon for leadership and experience. So it would have to be Magnussen and Magnussen alone. But if Magnussen got the leadership and experenced required, they could just bring another rookie though? Shwartzman for instance. I don't really see him getting into a Ferrari seat anytime soon. Surely that's a good brick to take, if you fear that Mick might eventually leave to go to a german team. Or do HAAS just simply need two experienced drivers to get anywhere?

Yeah, I'm abit confused about the direction HAAS is taking... Perhaps I've taken the attributes of leadership and experience a tad to far in my contemplations though. Will be interesting who it is and the reasoning for it.

Two Questions To Guenther Steiner In The Press Meeting:

"Q: Now, let's talk about your second driver for next year. On Thursday, Kevin said that Mick Schumacher deserves another season in Formula 1, what's your reaction to Kevin's comments?

GS: I heard this comment for the first time. I don't think… Deserving or not, a lot of people deserve something. I need to look after the whole team and see if Mick is the chosen one. You know, I'm not saying it's not Mick or anything. I think I got a lot of consultancy from people, what people think who should be driving the car, who deserves what and whatever. And obviously, Kevin said that as well, that he thinks, but that is what he thinks but in the end I need to look after or we need to look after our team for the future and then we will take the driver we want in the car and we think we can go forward with in developing the team you know. So if it is Mick, it is Mick, and if it’s somebody else, it’s somebody else. But you know with these comments, I mean, I get them all day long. You know people telling me what we should be doing.

Q: Well, what is in the best interests of the team in terms of that second driver? Do you want someone with more experience?

GS: I mean, Mick has got some experience, obviously it’s his second year in Formula 1. Is that enough, you know, to take the team forward? We need leadership from this position. And these are all the things I evaluate, you know, that's the most important thing. How can we take the team forward?"

Source: https://www.fia.com/news/f1-2022-united ... transcript

[diffuser]

I wanna go into the HAAS situation, because it's quite perculiar given the statements that have been made by HAAS (Gene and Gunther) as well as the rumours flying around. I've attached two questions that were given to Guenther in the press meeting in USA. It can be found at the bottom of the text.

Mick's seat is up for grabs and it seems like it's between Mick and Hulkenberg (going by the rumours). 'Leadership' and 'Experience' (not wanting a rookie) are two attributes that has been thrown around by Guenther, and that worries me slightly. Because surely, these are attributes that Magnussen SHOULD have, given his amount of time within F1. But there seems like Guenther is implying that is lacking. But what if it was something else? Could it be that Guenther recognizes that Mick might not be a long term solution? Not because he might not be fast enough, or reliable enough, but because of the desire from Audi (maybe Mercedes if Hamilton retires at some point) to bring Mick to them. German driver in a german team. Makes sense from a marketing perspective. From HAAS perspective, they might be nourishing a driver that might leave them sooner rather than later. And thus they might do the media angle of wanting an experienced driver to not look to foolish.

So with that in mind, if Mick were to re-sign, they might just be able to keep him for maximum of three years. Which I wouldn't call 'long term'. With Audi already confirming the Sauber connection, it might even be as soon as 2024. Do HAAS have that scenario in mind? And is that why they haven't already signed him up and might be looking for a short term option (such as Hulkenberg), to hopefully find a suitable driver to carry them forward long term?

But then again, what does Mick prefer? Audi/Alfa/Sauber at 2024 (at the earliest) and sitting a year out, or signing an another year(s) at HAAS?

If it turns out they ACTUALLY wants leadership and experience due to Magnussen lacking in that department, it's not really a good look for Magnussen. At that point, you might wanna look at replacing Magnussen and perhaps pair up a Hulkenberg (which I would consider to be an upgrade on Magnussen (given that it is 2020 Hulkenberg)) with a more rookie-esque driver, like Mick. Because although Magnussen has decent speed, there probably are people out there that could match him (and surpass him) which Mick already has done on multiple occasions. But replacing Magnussen for 23' won't happen since HAAS most likely won't spend the money to buy him out.

Then you might have to ask if the damage was done when they signed Magnussen for two years. But why would HAAS sign Magnussen for two years, knowing that the another seat would be a rookie-esque driver and thus could not be relied upon for leadership and experience. So it would have to be Magnussen and Magnussen alone. But if Magnussen got the leadership and experenced required, they could just bring another rookie though? Shwartzman for instance. I don't really see him getting into a Ferrari seat anytime soon. Surely that's a good brick to take, if you fear that Mick might eventually leave to go to a german team. Or do HAAS just simply need two experienced drivers to get anywhere?

Yeah, I'm abit confused about the direction HAAS is taking... Perhaps I've taken the attributes of leadership and experience a tad to far in my contemplations though. Will be interesting who it is and the reasoning for it.

Two Questions To Guenther Steiner In The Press Meeting:

"Q: Now, let's talk about your second driver for next year. On Thursday, Kevin said that Mick Schumacher deserves another season in Formula 1, what's your reaction to Kevin's comments?

GS: I heard this comment for the first time. I don't think… Deserving or not, a lot of people deserve something. I need to look after the whole team and see if Mick is the chosen one. You know, I'm not saying it's not Mick or anything. I think I got a lot of consultancy from people, what people think who should be driving the car, who deserves what and whatever. And obviously, Kevin said that as well, that he thinks, but that is what he thinks but in the end I need to look after or we need to look after our team for the future and then we will take the driver we want in the car and we think we can go forward with in developing the team you know. So if it is Mick, it is Mick, and if it’s somebody else, it’s somebody else. But you know with these comments, I mean, I get them all day long. You know people telling me what we should be doing.

Q: Well, what is in the best interests of the team in terms of that second driver? Do you want someone with more experience?

GS: I mean, Mick has got some experience, obviously it’s his second year in Formula 1. Is that enough, you know, to take the team forward? We need leadership from this position. And these are all the things I evaluate, you know, that's the most important thing. How can we take the team forward?"

Source: https://www.fia.com/news/f1-2022-united ... transcript

I think Mich is fighting for his F1 future, forget 2024. If he doesn't make it into 2023, 2024 will be harder.

Also, forget what KMag said about Mich, he was just being polite. In the end GS is looking for a way to evaluate KMag. Bringing in KMag made Mich better. He now has an idea about Mich. I think Hulk was an excellent driver but he always suffered from being a big boy, they changed the regs since. Pit him against KMag and we'll see how good KMag is. I'm sure GS would love to get his hands on Ricciardo.

[Swed3121]

I wanna go into the HAAS situation, because it's quite perculiar given the statements that have been made by HAAS (Gene and Gunther) as well as the rumours flying around. I've attached two questions that were given to Guenther in the press meeting in USA. It can be found at the bottom of the text.

Mick's seat is up for grabs and it seems like it's between Mick and Hulkenberg (going by the rumours). 'Leadership' and 'Experience' (not wanting a rookie) are two attributes that has been thrown around by Guenther, and that worries me slightly. Because surely, these are attributes that Magnussen SHOULD have, given his amount of time within F1. But there seems like Guenther is implying that is lacking. But what if it was something else? Could it be that Guenther recognizes that Mick might not be a long term solution? Not because he might not be fast enough, or reliable enough, but because of the desire from Audi (maybe Mercedes if Hamilton retires at some point) to bring Mick to them. German driver in a german team. Makes sense from a marketing perspective. From HAAS perspective, they might be nourishing a driver that might leave them sooner rather than later. And thus they might do the media angle of wanting an experienced driver to not look to foolish.

So with that in mind, if Mick were to re-sign, they might just be able to keep him for maximum of three years. Which I wouldn't call 'long term'. With Audi already confirming the Sauber connection, it might even be as soon as 2024. Do HAAS have that scenario in mind? And is that why they haven't already signed him up and might be looking for a short term option (such as Hulkenberg), to hopefully find a suitable driver to carry them forward long term?

But then again, what does Mick prefer? Audi/Alfa/Sauber at 2024 (at the earliest) and sitting a year out, or signing an another year(s) at HAAS?

If it turns out they ACTUALLY wants leadership and experience due to Magnussen lacking in that department, it's not really a good look for Magnussen. At that point, you might wanna look at replacing Magnussen and perhaps pair up a Hulkenberg (which I would consider to be an upgrade on Magnussen (given that it is 2020 Hulkenberg)) with a more rookie-esque driver, like Mick. Because although Magnussen has decent speed, there probably are people out there that could match him (and surpass him) which Mick already has done on multiple occasions. But replacing Magnussen for 23' won't happen since HAAS most likely won't spend the money to buy him out.

Then you might have to ask if the damage was done when they signed Magnussen for two years. But why would HAAS sign Magnussen for two years, knowing that the another seat would be a rookie-esque driver and thus could not be relied upon for leadership and experience. So it would have to be Magnussen and Magnussen alone. But if Magnussen got the leadership and experenced required, they could just bring another rookie though? Shwartzman for instance. I don't really see him getting into a Ferrari seat anytime soon. Surely that's a good brick to take, if you fear that Mick might eventually leave to go to a german team. Or do HAAS just simply need two experienced drivers to get anywhere?

Yeah, I'm abit confused about the direction HAAS is taking... Perhaps I've taken the attributes of leadership and experience a tad to far in my contemplations though. Will be interesting who it is and the reasoning for it.

Two Questions To Guenther Steiner In The Press Meeting:

"Q: Now, let's talk about your second driver for next year. On Thursday, Kevin said that Mick Schumacher deserves another season in Formula 1, what's your reaction to Kevin's comments?

GS: I heard this comment for the first time. I don't think… Deserving or not, a lot of people deserve something. I need to look after the whole team and see if Mick is the chosen one. You know, I'm not saying it's not Mick or anything. I think I got a lot of consultancy from people, what people think who should be driving the car, who deserves what and whatever. And obviously, Kevin said that as well, that he thinks, but that is what he thinks but in the end I need to look after or we need to look after our team for the future and then we will take the driver we want in the car and we think we can go forward with in developing the team you know. So if it is Mick, it is Mick, and if it’s somebody else, it’s somebody else. But you know with these comments, I mean, I get them all day long. You know people telling me what we should be doing.

Q: Well, what is in the best interests of the team in terms of that second driver? Do you want someone with more experience?

GS: I mean, Mick has got some experience, obviously it’s his second year in Formula 1. Is that enough, you know, to take the team forward? We need leadership from this position. And these are all the things I evaluate, you know, that's the most important thing. How can we take the team forward?"

Source: https://www.fia.com/news/f1-2022-united ... transcript

I don’t think it ha anything to do with Kmag lacking experience or leadership, simply that haas and Günther aren’t interested in nurturing a rookie or dealing with Schumachers endless accidents, a Team like McLaren or alpine has the money to cover any accident damage their new talent many cause. haas doesn’t. Mick has cost them upwards of 5mil in crash damage, considering how much shouting there has been about the 1,8mil RB overspend being worth almost 3 tenths, just imagine what haas could do with an extra 5 mil. Also, While debatable, I belobe Schumacher is closer to drugovich than Leclerc, Russell or (in this case key) Piastri.
These guys won f2 against fierce competition.
Schumacher won f2 against a number of less experienced drivers, in a massively over powered prema, only fighting illott and tsunoda over the end of the season, benefitting from the laters bad reliability.
It’s worth noting that f2 championship vary massively by year. 2018 was probably the most stacked deck in the last 10 years.
It’s always worth giving a f2 champ a shot at f1, but it’s also important to call time when they aren’t good enough

Haas seemingly want to go back to the type of line-up they had 2016-20 with 2 experiences decent drivers, they do not need to be the next Verstappen or Hamilton, but also can’t be breaking 3 chassis a season. This is where hulk &Kmag is ideal. Not to expensive both in salary and crash damage, hulk keeps the German sponsors at haas and they get 2 decent midfield drivers.

Also, if Schumacher is even considering the 2024 Audi drive, he is even more insane than Daniel Ricciardo thinking he’ll end up at Mercedes.
Both of them need to realise, you take what you get, I’m sure Günther would love Ricciardo, but Ricciardos head is way to big to even accept being crucified by lando, let alone realise the peril is career is in.
There is absolutely zero chance of Audi being interested in mick. He will be just another Vandoorne or Hartley or Kvyat, decently quick on their day but not good enough to stick around for more than a few years.
Just compare the 2018 f2 grid to the 2020 Version.
Norris matched sainz in his first season, somebody who was matching max in 2016
Albon was fighting gasly, a driver with 2 years experience in the Team and a race winner.
Russel obliterated Kubica(who sadly isnt the same as 2005 kubica)
Schumacher was faster than a pay driver and after a year in the sport, wasn’t able to match a old driver who’d spent a year on the sidelines, not exactly inspiring stuff.
We need to get over micks name and realise he isn’t the second coming of his father and is simply another midfield driver who while fast enough on his day, couldn’t quite make it.

[Zynerji]

How is the leadership of this team still in place? They have underperformed with so many advantages, it is obvious that a change is needed!