2010 regulation row on £40m budget cap

[timbo]

Unlimited revs, 160BHP KERS, moveable wings, single race engines? I'M SO --- THERE =D>

And you seriously believe they can pull that off with 40 million pounds? It's $64 mil, reportedly only Super Agury had less in 2007.

PS I wonder how much (for pure electricity) may cost unlimited (365/24) operation of wind tunnel.

[jamsbong]

PS I wonder how much (for pure electricity) may cost unlimited (365/24) operation of wind tunnel.

Depends on the wind speed inside the tunnel.

I like the rule changes in 2008 and 2009. but I think it is time to give the "rule changes" a break. 2010 should be identical to this year. I mean if it is not broken, don't (over) fix it.

[ISLAMATRON]

Unlimited revs, 160BHP KERS, moveable wings, single race engines? I'M SO --- THERE =D>

And you seriously believe they can pull that off with 40 million pounds? It's $64 mil, reportedly only Super Agury had less in 2007.

PS I wonder how much (for pure electricity) may cost unlimited (365/24) operation of wind tunnel.

Do you still not understand that engine costs, driver saleries, and hospitality/marketing(anything that does not make the car go faster) are not included in the cap?

Unlimited revs/1 race engines would not be cap regulated.... the KERS is exactly double what it is this year so they can just double it up(2 MGU's & 2 battery packs or flywheels), just double the lease price if you are FiF1 or the like and the moveable wings up front are already paid for from this year.... maybe you couldnt get it done for 64 mil, but some half way decent out of work Super Aguri engineers could.

[timbo]

Do you still not understand that engine costs, driver saleries, and hospitality/marketing(anything that does not make the car go faster) are not included in the cap?

AFAIK engine exclusion from cap is only for next year. And from 2011 it is planned that engine would be in a cap.

Unlimited revs/1 race engines would not be cap regulated.... the KERS is exactly double what it is this year so they can just double it up(2 MGU's & 2 battery packs or flywheels), just double the lease price if you are FiF1 or the like and the moveable wings up front are already paid for from this year.... maybe you couldnt get it done for 64 mil, but some half way decent out of work Super Aguri engineers could.

Williams have 500 employees. Even with 2000/month it is 12 mil pounds.
And what about testing?
And BTW Super Aguri didn't designed their chassis and I'm not sure it even built. The cheapest team who actually designed their chassis (with tests/aero etc) was Midland/Spyker with 120.

However, I dunno, maybe you're talking about this
http://wot.motortrend.com/6294574/misce ... index.html

[ISLAMATRON]

Do you still not understand that engine costs, driver saleries, and hospitality/marketing(anything that does not make the car go faster) are not included in the cap?

AFAIK engine exclusion from cap is only for next year. And from 2011 it is planned that engine would be in a cap.

Unlimited revs/1 race engines would not be cap regulated.... the KERS is exactly double what it is this year so they can just double it up(2 MGU's & 2 battery packs or flywheels), just double the lease price if you are FiF1 or the like and the moveable wings up front are already paid for from this year.... maybe you couldnt get it done for 64 mil, but some half way decent out of work Super Aguri engineers could.

Williams have 500 employees. Even with 2000/month it is 12 mil pounds.
And what about testing?
And BTW Super Aguri didn't designed their chassis and I'm not sure it even built. The cheapest team who actually designed their chassis (with tests/aero etc) was Midland/Spyker with 120.

However, I dunno, maybe you're talking about this
http://wot.motortrend.com/6294574/misce ... index.html

I highly doubt Williams ad that many employees when they were winning championships... so who says they need that many now when they make every effort to be a backmarker?
There seem to be plenty of new teams that believe they can get it done for the 40 mil... Williams also.

Spyker at 120mil DOLLARS(so about 70 mil pounds) includes engines(which were much more expensive back then) & hospitality/marketing...so clearly it can be done.

[WhiteBlue]

F1 is not supposed to compete on downforce generation by hugely expensive 100% scale rolling road wind tunnels. The rules should be written such that the cars with the best fuel economy will finish first. So the focus should be on drag reduction, maximising KERS, introducing HERS and improving combustion efficiency. This year it is all about the timely introduction of the DDD but hopefully next year less trivial reasons for competitiveness should prevail.

[timbo]

I highly doubt Williams ad that many employees when they were winning championships... so who says they need that many now when they make every effort to be a backmarker?

Thing is they do. And can't quite compare early-mid 90's with late '00.

There seem to be plenty of new teams that believe they can get it done for the 40 mil... Williams also.

Are you seriously believe all those iSports, LightSpeed etc. are seriously planning to create up and running F1 team? Who gonna make a monocoque for them?
And as for Williams - we don't know whether they entered as capped team or no.
Besides even with $64 million figure I highly doubt most of the new "names" would manage to raise enough funds.

Spyker at 120mil DOLLARS(so about 70 mil pounds) includes engines(which were much more expensive back then) & hospitality/marketing...so clearly it can be done.

It can, probably, be done. But it would only work with a) dramatic reduction of personnel b) lower level technology c) very slow development pace.
Yes, and at the end Spyker F1 operation was sold leaving the company in debt, so that 120 was not enough.

[axle]

Williams are in a unique/difficult position.

They have already been paid for the 2010 season by FOM. As such they are duty bound and legally bound to participate.

They agree with FOTA but have to compete no matter what.

http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_ ... t_id=38022

[WhiteBlue]

http://www.forumula1.net/2009/f1/f1-new ... r-ferrari/

They all have their reasons for getting picked off. More observers seem to share my view how this will end.

[Chaparral]

Hugh Podmore WB what a hack wanker - what does that say re your statement - FOTA will get what they are after

[ISLAMATRON]

I highly doubt Williams ad that many employees when they were winning championships... so who says they need that many now when they make every effort to be a backmarker?

Thing is they do. And can't quite compare early-mid 90's with late '00.

There seem to be plenty of new teams that believe they can get it done for the 40 mil... Williams also.

Are you seriously believe all those iSports, LightSpeed etc. are seriously planning to create up and running F1 team? Who gonna make a monocoque for them?
And as for Williams - we don't know whether they entered as capped team or no.
Besides even with $64 million figure I highly doubt most of the new "names" would manage to raise enough funds.

Spyker at 120mil DOLLARS(so about 70 mil pounds) includes engines(which were much more expensive back then) & hospitality/marketing...so clearly it can be done.

It can, probably, be done. But it would only work with a) dramatic reduction of personnel b) lower level technology c) very slow development pace.
Yes, and at the end Spyker F1 operation was sold leaving the company in debt, so that 120 was not enough.

There will always be people who will say it cant be done, and other people who actually get it done, and those who fail trying, and those who would not try at all.

[WhiteBlue]

..FOTA will get what they are after

Of course FOTA will issue a press release saying they won the noble case. It's called face saving. It has all been in the game plan from the start.

[Chaparral]

..FOTA will get what they are after

Of course FOTA will issue a press release saying they won the noble case. It's called face saving. It has all been in the game plan from the start.

What face saving I dont see any - they will get what they are after full stop. The FIA and even more so FOM/CVC cannot operate F1 without the product and thats a fact and FOTA have (the product) - forget all the bullshit with new teams blah blah blah who cares. There wont be a two tiered series from next year in the regs area and there will be a step down controlled period in budget reduction for the major players and introduction of the 'new' players - how that works well thats what will be worked out over due course - this isnt rocket science its just a fact of life in the entertainment industry and thats what this game is now - unfortunately.......

[WhiteBlue]

FOTA remains a paper tiger as long as they do not control the commercial rights. And that issn't the only problem. Every serious issue with impact on competitiveness will drive them apart (compare DDD issue).

In my view FOTA will have a limited use by channelling team interests in rule debates but will have no serious chance to do their own thing before 2012. It rests to be seen if they manage to prepare for that opportunity.

[mcdenife]

Chaparral, it seems some people just pick a side on any particular issue then simply try to win through baseless surmises, conjecture, speculation or indeed anything, no matter how far-fetched, to support their reasoning(?).

I think it was obvious to any reasonable person that William, Brawn and Force India will indeed sign up to 2010. Why? because it is their core business. As Williams CEO put it.

Having said that, Williams has, and has always maintained, that we have a binding contract with both FOM and the FIA to participate in the world championship from 2008 to 2010. We have been paid in full for our participation and we feel both morally and legally obliged to make it clear that we will participate in Formula One in the future as we have in the past 30 years. We owe this to our employees, our sponsors and the fans, all of whom are affected by statements that the teams may not enter next year's championship.

All of this did not need to be spelt out to any reasonable person, its obvious. Indeed the thinking has always been that it was the Manufacturer teams who were threatening to set up a rival series, with the privateers joining later, at least Williams anyway (and I suspect Brawn as well), because from a commercial point of view it will make not sense for them to compete in a series that does not include Ferarri. From all of this it also stands to reason that whether they support Ferarri (and Toyota's) hardline stance in this issue, there is no way ANY of the manufacturers will stay in F1 if Ferarri left, (even sitting on the fence, for obvious reasons, Mclaren). As Ciro said, its a marketing thing. Love 'em or loath 'em (and I fall into the latter category), anyone who thinks present day F1 can survive without Ferrari is living in cloud cockoo land and thats why, regardless of what they say, FOM and the FIA are crapping themselves. (BTW WB, in this whole mess, the only party trying to backtrack gracefully and save face is the FIA not FOTA). Max has even mentioned sanctioning a (or the) new series (implying that they really need the FIA to sanction a new series (a guy can dream). Bernie can threathen legal action from now till kingdom come but this is all posturing, he knows Ferarri have already established legal reason for leaving. In the end and whatever the outcome FOM loses, big time. Because assuming in the unlikely event he manages to get $300m from Ferrari, he loses many times that in income and payments owed to the other teams (not to talk of their loan repayments).