Engine block aluminum vs compacted graphite iron CGI

[dans79]

I feel like a lot of people here don't have a real grasp on how many different alloys of aluminium exist, and how diverse their mechanical properties are.

[johnny comelately]

I feel like a lot of people here don't have a real grasp on how many different alloys of aluminium exist, and how diverse their mechanical properties are.

It is a subject which could be expanded upon greatly Dan for sure, partic when considering treatments like heat, age, cryogenic that manipulate the molecular structures to do astounding things, go for it Dan

[dans79]

I feel like a lot of people here don't have a real grasp on how many different alloys of aluminium exist, and how diverse their mechanical properties are.

It is a subject which could be expanded upon greatly Dan for sure, partic when considering treatments like heat, age, cryogenic that manipulate the molecular structures to do astounding things, go for it Dan

I'm not sure i could do the topic justice as a whole without heavily plagiarizing some of my hand me down books. My dad has 40+ years in the industry, so i have inherited a lot of literature and knowledge from him.

But as a simple example take a look at this paper that compares Scalmalloy (fia approved its usage in 2020) to 6061-T6 (a very common and cheap alloy).
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 9022000019

For a quick comparisons of more common alloys people can check out where i purchase metal for my personal shop.
6061, 2024, and 7075.

I usually keep 6061-T6, 2024-T3, and 7075-T6

[johnny comelately]

I feel like a lot of people here don't have a real grasp on how many different alloys of aluminium exist, and how diverse their mechanical properties are.

It is a subject which could be expanded upon greatly Dan for sure, partic when considering treatments like heat, age, cryogenic that manipulate the molecular structures to do astounding things, go for it Dan

I'm not sure i could do the topic justice as a whole without heavily plagiarizing some of my hand me down books. My dad has 40+ years in the industry, so i have inherited a lot of literature and knowledge from him.

But as a simple example take a look at this paper that compares Scalmalloy (fia approved its usage in 2020) to 6061-T6 (a very common and cheap alloy).
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 9022000019

For a quick comparisons of more common alloys people can check out where i purchase metal for my personal shop.
6061, 2024, and 7075.

I usually keep 6061-T6, 2024-T3, and 7075-T6

I dont think its plagiarizing so much as sharing for others benefit.
These aluminium alloys (hope you are pronouncing that right Dan ) are examples of rolled plate and bar with post treatments like solution treatments and artificially aged (someone has to bring up the BMW cast iron blocks left out the back of the factory for a long time)
And that aluminium alloy has such properties but add some oxygen and it becomes one of our most common griding materials or in another config, a ruby.
What is interesting is the new method of making alloys from powder that is producing large increases in properties like tensile strength, one of the examples is with Titanium (I'll have to find that info)

[dans79]

What is interesting is the new method of making alloys from powder that is producing large increases in properties like tensile strength, one of the examples is with Titanium (I'll have to find that info)

It also makes production of metal parts substantially cheaper. For example if you have a cordless drill produced in the last decade, it probably has powdered metallurgy parts in the drive train.

for those that want a simple overview!

[johnny comelately]

This is along the lines of the new titanium.
From memory it had an 86% higher tensile strength.
The initial thoughts were because they used very fine powder to start the process rather than just the great big melting pot
But this is a whole new level in approach:

"A novel high-strength β-Ti alloy with hierarchical distribution of α-phase: The superior combination of strength and ductility.
A novel β-titanium alloy, Ti-5Al-4Zr-8Mo-7V, was successfully designed using the ‘d-electron theory’.
Hierarchical distribution α-phase in β-matrix was developed by proper β-transus forging and heat treatment.
A novel high-strength metastable β-Ti alloy Ti-5Al-4Zr-8Mo-7V has been successfully designed utilizing the “d-electron theory” combined with the semi-empirical element-hardening criteria. The excellent combination of strength σb ~ 1460 MPa and ductility ɛf ~ 10% is achieved by tailoring hierarchical distribution of α-phase in β-matrix."

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 7519300772

[Tommy Cookers]

where have people been ?
most aluminium alloys have been around for c.100 years

but yes there's something new and outstanding ....
https://aluminiuminsider.com/aluminium- ... ys-future/

[Honda Porsche fan]

Because a F1 engine is a stressed member cast iron cracks

Ferrari chose gray cast iron for the F50 engine block because the engine is used as a stressed member with no space frame. The aluminum was not strong enough.

Compacted graphite iron CGI is 2x times stronger than grey cast iron. CGI has a tensile strength of around 50,000 psi.

Aluminum - Class 319, A356, A357 with T5/T6 heat treatment - Tensile strength of 10,000 psi to 14,000 psi.

Gray cast iron - Class 20 and 25 - Tensile strength of 20,000 psi to 25,000 psi.

Compacted graphite iron CGI - Tensile strength of around 50,000 psi.



Billet aluminum - Class 6061 - Tensile strength of 70,000 psi. Used in NHRA Top Fuel/Funny Car dragsters with 12,000 horsepower (Alan Jackson AJPE and Elmer Racing). EXTREMELY expensive and rare. Not mass produced, only small quantities for individual race teams. Not even F1 teams use billet aluminum 6061.

How much does one billet aluminum Class 6061 engine block from Alan Jackson AJPE and Elmer Racing cost?

What type of stress and damage does drilling billet aluminum do to machines/drills ?

[Honda Porsche fan]

where have people been ?
most aluminium alloys have been around for c.100 years

but yes there's something new and outstanding ....
https://aluminiuminsider.com/aluminium- ... ys-future/

Scandium Price:

However, there is no known big commercial use of scandium, and the global yearly demand for the metal is relatively very small, around 20 tonnes. The reason for this is usually found in scandium’s low concentration and its difficulty in separating it from the ore, pushing costs to elevated levels (according to recent figures, around US$7000 /kg of concentrate), thereby hampering its commercial use.

As such, despite a growing interest from the automotive industry, among others, the price of Al-Sc master alloys is still too high for most commercial applications. So far scandium has not generally been mined, and it has been extracted mainly as a by-product in the mining of iron, uranium or tantalum, mostly in Russia and China.

Owing to its scarcity and limited production, scandium is one of the most expensive metals in the world. Prices for 99.99% pure scandium (RE: 99% min. | Sc/TREM: 99.99% min.) have fluctuated between US$4000 and US$20,000 per kilogram over the past decade,a ccording to Strategic-metal.com. Due to the limited amount of material produced globally and the limited market for scandium, there is also a wide range of prices offered for the metal at any given time. A recent offer for 99.9% scandium concentrate was at US$15,000 /kg.

The more widely used form in commercial applications, scandium oxide (Sc2O3), was recently offered at prices of around US$7000/kg, which is in the range of 20-year average.

Depending on the percentage of the scandium alloying element, the price of the Al-Sc alloys are expected to cost between 30% more than non-scandium alloy (at scandium levels of between 0.06 up to 0.12 wt% as used in Al-Zn-Mg (Cu) alloys), and 100%

....

https://aluminiuminsider.com/aluminium- ... ys-future/


Using extremely rare, extremely expensive metals and super alloys in mass produced engine blocks and heads??? No thanks. That cost would force automakers to drastically increase the cost of their cars passed down to the consumer. A Honda Civic and Ford Focus with forged billet aluminum 6061-T6 or Scandium engine blocks and heads?

I want to see the math, data and studies on using extremely rare, extremely expensive super alloys and metals in engine blocks and heads and what the final cost will be of these cars and how much the automakers pass that additional cost down to the consumer?

How much more would a Ford Focus/Fusion/Mustang, Honda Civic/Accord, Toyota Corolla/Camry cost if it had a forged billet aluminum 6061-T6 or aluminum Scandium engine block and heads?

Ford, GM, Dodge pickup trucks today are over $90,000 U.S. dollars brand new with regular gray cast iron and aluminum engine blocks.

I think I'll stick to the Toyota Supra 2JZ-GTE and Dodge Viper iron engine blocks, with basic aftermarket tuning can get over 2,000 hp out of them reliably.

[dans79]

Billet aluminum - Class 6061 - Tensile strength of 70,000 psi. Used in NHRA Top Fuel/Funny Car dragsters with 12,000 horsepower (Alan Jackson AJPE and Elmer Racing). EXTREMELY expensive and rare. Not mass produced, only small quantities for individual race teams. Not even F1 teams use billet aluminum 6061.

How much does one billet aluminum Class 6061 engine block from Alan Jackson AJPE and Elmer Racing cost?

What type of stress and damage does drilling billet aluminum do to machines/drills ?

Their is absolutely nothing special about 6061. It's generally the least expensive of the heat treatable alloys, and very common. walk back to the metal section of any hardware or hobby store, and the aluminum is most likely extruded 6061.

"Billet" is marketing more than anything else, that gearheads and knuckle dragging machinists parrot because they don't know any better.


Billet anything usually means a block of metal, nothing more. sometimes it might be heat treated or it might not be. Sometimes it might be forged, but that not universal either, because forging introduces stresses into the material. Machining a forged part can cause the stresses to be released unevenly, thus warping the part and turning it into scrap.

High performance aluminum engine blocks are expensive because you take a large block of solid aluminum and spend a lot of time turning a substantial portion of it into chips that are basically garbage!

watch this.


if you want to see how aluminum and aluminum objects in general are made, watch this.


or this.

[Honda Porsche fan]

Their is absolutely nothing special about 6061. It's generally the least expensive of the heat treatable alloys, and very common. walk back to the metal section of any hardware or hobby store, and the aluminum is most likely extruded 6061.

"Billet" is marketing more than anything else, that gearheads and knuckle dragging machinists parrot because they don't know any better.


Billet anything usually means a block of metal, nothing more. sometimes it might be heat treated or it might not be. Sometimes it might be forged, but that not universal either, because forging introduces stresses into the material. Machining a forged part can cause the stresses to be released unevenly, thus warping the part and turning it into scrap.

High performance aluminum engine blocks are expensive because you take a large block of solid aluminum and spend a lot of time turning a substantial portion of it into chips that are basically garbage!

Why are solid forged billet 6061-T6 aluminum engine blocks and heads so expensive? Is it worth it in the consumer auto market for mass produced vehicles?

Are solid forged billet 6061-T6 aluminum engine blocks and heads used in F1, Indycar and MotoGP ? If not, why not ?

I'm not saying they are weak, they are the opposite of weak. They are used in NHRA nitromethane Top Fuel/Funny Car dragsters with over 12,000 HP that can go over 338 mph.

[PhillipM]

Because they're ultra small production run specialist parts for a tiny captive market.

As said though, there's nothing rare or expensive about 6061, it's one of the most common alloys out there for engineering use, it's used everywhere, even basic aluminium handrail tube or water pipe is often 6061 or 6082.

Even $200 RC cars use 6061 and 7075 (far stronger than 6061) components.

[Honda Porsche fan]

Because they're ultra small production run specialist parts for a tiny captive market.

As said though, there's nothing rare or expensive about 6061, it's one of the most common alloys out there for engineering use, it's used everywhere, even basic aluminium handrail tube or water pipe is often 6061 or 6082.

Even $200 RC cars use 6061 and 7075 (far stronger than 6061) components.

Are solid forged billet 6061-T6 or 7075 aluminum engine blocks and heads used in F1, Indycar and MotoGP ? If not, why not ?

[dans79]

Why are solid forged billet 6061-T6 aluminum engine blocks and heads so expensive?

• aluminum stock big enough to machine a block or head, is not needed much in consumer goods or general industry, thus is can be almost exponential more expensive. The mill might have to do a custom run just for you or an intermediate supplier, and then someone is going to have to sit on all the extra inventory!
• To machine it you want at least a 4 axis if not a 5 axis maching center of decent size, and those aren't cheap. specially the ones capable of high material removal rates or high accuracy or both.
• You will need some specialized tooling, long reach mills, drills, and holders etc, and they can get real pricy real quick. Specially if you need high accuracy tools or holders.
• Cnc machine time is expensive, and something as complicated as a block might require 10s of hours of maching time.
• The market for a 100% block is limited

it all compounds on top of each other leading to a really expensive final product.

[dans79]

If you want to understand why stuff can get so expensive, check out this video.

Tom lipton is a machinist I've followed for almost a decade. Normally he just shows stuff in his home shop, but in this video he walks another youtuber around where he works (Berkeley national lab), and you will see all kinds of expensive stuff, machines and final projects!