2021 Cost Cap Rumours and Speculation

[Hoffman900]

So that's this year... so are we going to see another penalty for next year due to this additional overspend?
Presumably the fine is also included in the cost cap?

fines are excluded from the cost cap, it's in the rules.

https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... iss.11.pdf

in the exclusions section

(m) All Financial Penalties in respect of any breach of these Financial Regulations;

That’s so dumb.

They need to stop with these committees, hiring ex F1 team people in cushy retirement jobs to do nothing, trying to be everything to all the teams, just come up with some rules and enforce them.

As much crap as you can give NASCAR, they can run the racing portion and enforce their rules correctly.

[yamahasho]

Where are the forum users that support Red Bull 's position, why they think they didn't get a competitive advantage and their justification for it. The details coming out just don't look good for Red Bull.

[littlebigcat]

I feel somewhat vindicated that those of us who believe in the rules, and logically approached the rumours and compared them with regulations were right all along. Its it feels somewhat believable that a team managed by a hot mess and has an overall laissez faire attitude to rules would come afoul of these regulations.

Given how ficticious the rumours were, I doubt many actually came from the FIA as people suggest.

[Hoffman900]

Where are the forum users that support Red Bull 's position, why they think they didn't get a competitive advantage and their justification for it. The details coming out just don't look good for Red Bull.

They’re all over here. A handful of the top posters on Max Verstappen’s fan forum are here.

I actually feel bad* for Max and Honda. I’m a big Honda fan and always have been, and Max, while his personality grates me, is a generational talent and doesn’t need all this to cloud his legacy.

* as bad as I can feel for an international company and a rich kid born into good circumstances.

[west52keep64]

This is factually incorrect, Article 4.1(f)(i)(B) is nothing to do with unused spare parts.

The depends greatly on what version of the rules you are reading. remember they published 12 versions/issues this year alone.


https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... iss.11.pdf
Article 4.1(f)(i)(ii)

the cost of an item of Unused Inventories must not be recognised in
the Reporting Period; and

That's why i try to remember to always link to the rules when quoting them.

No it doesn't, because in this case the ABA is clearly referencing the regs before they were amended i.e. issue 9.

Article 4.1(f)(i)(B) does not exist in issue 11 onwards, you've even quoted as such yourself because Article 4.1(f)(i)(ii) is a totally different clause.

[fritticaldi]

I always thought Red Bull brand and Verstappen were genuine . Now, Red Bull will forever be associated with fraud. Even the FIA is a total disgrace.

[littlebigcat]

Horner is such a stirrer, specifically saying they changed the rules after they submitted to discredit the FIA. There should be a formal reprimand for him.

[dans79]

Having won the titles early and thus with no need to spend any more money on the RB18, the penalty going in to next year is less than if they were in 2021 where they were working the RB16B right though the season. RBR can park the current car and put everything in to the RB19 so somewhat less of a punishment than it might be in other years.

I'm talking about the tunnel and CFD time reduction. That takes effect today (if i'm reading it right), so that will hinder their agility to develop next years car starting today!

It's not a daily or weekly spread of reduction! They would go at the same speed that they are now, but would reach the end sooner than they were supposed to.

I know, it's 6 divisions (not equal in length) in the year. The are listed in the sporting regulations as ATPs. If i did all the math in my head right, the last one lasts for 9 weeks and hasn't started yet.

https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... 0-19_0.pdf

An Aerodynamic Testing Period (ATP) is a period of consecutive calendar weeks
for the purposes of evaluation of the limits within this Article. As soon as one ATP
ends a new one begins, with no gaps between them.

There will be 6 ATPs in any year. The dates of these periods will be as follows:

i. Period 1 will start on 1 January and finish at the end of week 9.
ii. Periods 2, 3 and 5 will run for exactly 8 weeks each.
iii. Period 4 will run for 10 weeks, comprising the Summer Factory Shutdown described in Article 24.1.
iv. Period 6 will end on the 31 December.

[Hoffman900]

I'm talking about the tunnel and CFD time reduction. That takes effect today (if i'm reading it right), so that will hinder their agility to develop next years car starting today!

It's not a daily or weekly spread of reduction! They would go at the same speed that they are now, but would reach the end sooner than they were supposed to.

I know, it's 6 divisions (not equal in length) in the year. The are listed in the sporting regulations as ATPs. If i did all the math in my head right, the last one lasts for 9 weeks and hasn't started yet.

https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... 0-19_0.pdf

An Aerodynamic Testing Period (ATP) is a period of consecutive calendar weeks
for the purposes of evaluation of the limits within this Article. As soon as one ATP
ends a new one begins, with no gaps between them.

There will be 6 ATPs in any year. The dates of these periods will be as follows:

i. Period 1 will start on 1 January and finish at the end of week 9.
ii. Periods 2, 3 and 5 will run for exactly 8 weeks each.
iii. Period 4 will run for 10 weeks, comprising the Summer Factory Shutdown described in Article 24.1.
iv. Period 6 will end on the 31 December.

This also is so much more complicated than it needs to be.

F1 is just a bunch of people saying / doing things in the most breathlessly complicated way to give the illusion they are smarter than everyone.

Managing engineers, I sometimes have to remind people that saying / and doing things in the simplest way is often better. This is also why engineers are often not allowed to write specifications and contracts.

[organic]

From what I've heard RedBull will have less than 1
month off to be diluted. We can hypothesize 0.15 "sec of lack of aero development without going too far from reality #F1

Duchessa who is a source very close to Ferrari and its engineers says the 10% less aero time is likely to be worth around 1.5 tenths

[DGP123]

Haha 1.5 tenths

No surprise to see such a lenient punishment. Has been watered down through negotiation over the past two weeks. Total sham.

Doubt that 10% reduction hurts them too much for 23’, given the advantage they already hold.

[yamahasho]

I wonder if other teams can sue Red Bull on behalf of the FIA, kind of like a derivative suit. Where the teams can claim Red Bull has damaged the FIA and continues to damage the FIA.

It sure seems like other teams are staying quiet on this, what are teams like McLaren saying on the penalty?

[djones]

As disgusting as it is (mainly the lack of true punishment) a part of me thinks fair play to Redbull.

They played the system, weighed up the short-term championship (2021) and lasting development advantage versus potential punishment, and dramatically benefited from it.

You can bet all the other teams are now thinking "why were too stupid to not do that".

[Hoffman900]

As disgusting as it is (mainly the lack of true punishment) a part of me thinks fair play to Redbull.

They played the system, weighed up the short-term championship (2021) and lasting development advantage versus potential punishment, and dramatically benefited from it.

You can bet all the other teams are not thinking "why were too stupid to not do that".

(Un)Fair play to RedBull indeed. This is why the FIA should have punished them to the extent that it not only puts them back on an equal level as everyone, but sets them back. The FIA is entirely the problem here, partly because RedBull knows exceeding it, the punishment isn’t going to exceed the crime.

NASCAR punishes teams harder over a slightly modified fender than the FIA did for RB going over the cost cap.

[dans79]

This also is so much more complicated than it needs to be.

F1 is just a bunch of people saying / doing things in the most breathlessly complicated way to give the illusion they are smarter than everyone.

Managing engineers, I sometimes have to remind people that saying / and doing things in the simplest way is often better. This is also why engineers are often not allowed to write specifications and contracts.

As someone who holds the title of "Systems Engineer" I take a slight offence to this.

Imo, this is probably the FIA trying to ensure somen can't game the system. For example if they did a mid season rule change, someone who stockliped time might gain and advantage. It's all about the show you know!