F1 pistons and their makers

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
User avatar
PlatinumZealot
559
Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 03:45

Re: Mahle pistons

Post

Elliptical lathe? This in new to me so looked it up.

So the pistons are machined to be Circular at room temperature (?) Or elliptical?

Or you were just referring to the skirt?
πŸ–οΈβœŒοΈβ˜οΈπŸ‘€πŸ‘ŒβœοΈπŸŽπŸ†πŸ™

Racing Green in 2028

nickfos
nickfos
0
Joined: 04 May 2009, 05:10
Location: Qingdao

Re: Mahle pistons

Post

I know, our company manufactured the aluminum forgings in engine. you may check it.
http://www.forgingsupplier.com/aluminum-forgings.html
I like F1, I am from a forging company that provide forging parts for F1 cars. http://www.forging-company.com

Belatti
Belatti
33
Joined: 10 Jul 2007, 21:48
Location: Argentina

Re: Mahle pistons

Post

n smikle wrote:Elliptical lathe? This in new to me so looked it up.

So the pistons are machined to be Circular at room temperature (?) Or elliptical?

Or you were just referring to the skirt?
The pistons are machined to be circular at working temperatures.

This is an example of the working temperatures of a Diesel piston:

Image

So, to be circular at that temperatures, higher in the piston head where the combustion occurs, the piston skirt has to be machined at room tamperature with this shape, that is the one you can meassure:

Image

Also, because there is more material in the direction where the piston pin is located, the more material, the more the piston dilates, so in that direction the ellipse has its minor axis.

Basically, we have got 2 characteristics here: an elliptical piston wich diameters decrease in the direction to the piston crown.
"You need great passion, because everything you do with great pleasure, you do well." -Juan Manuel Fangio

"I have no idols. I admire work, dedication and competence." -Ayrton Senna

riff_raff
riff_raff
132
Joined: 24 Dec 2004, 10:18

Re: Mahle pistons

Post

n smikle,

It's only the piston skirt surface that must accurately match the bore under conditions of operating temperatures, combustion pressures, and mechanical loads. The area around the ring lands is relieved slightly so that it does not contact the bore. The piston skirt is profiled in 3 dimensions on a special lathe:

http://www.takisawauk.com/page4.htm

And technically, the skirt and bore surface never actually touch during operation, since a properly functioning oil control ring will always leave behind a micro-thin oil film layer after each stroke. This ensures that the piston skirt and compression rings glide over the cylinder bore surface under hydrodynamic conditions (ie. separated by a film of oil). If the rings and skirt did not operate under hydrodynamic contact, they would wear out in a matter of minutes.

The fit and accuracy of the compression ring grooves is also very critical with racing engines. If there is even the slightest excess groove-to-ring clearance, the rings will experience "flutter" at high engine speeds, due to the level of accelerations they undergo during each piston stroke. Flutter will overstress the ring and piston material mating surfaces, as well as cause the rings to lose their seal.

Regards,
Terry
"Q: How do you make a small fortune in racing?
A: Start with a large one!"

User avatar
PlatinumZealot
559
Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 03:45

Re: Mahle pistons

Post

thanks for the info.. very interesting. There are a lot of things we take for granted, like the piston, rings and oil film. This is what I like to learn the fundamentals. That makes the difference :)
πŸ–οΈβœŒοΈβ˜οΈπŸ‘€πŸ‘ŒβœοΈπŸŽπŸ†πŸ™

Racing Green in 2028

GrndLkNatv
GrndLkNatv
1
Joined: 03 Oct 2007, 18:31
Location: Northglenn, Colorado

Re: Mahle pistons

Post

Mahle supplies Ferrari with pistons as well. Pankl supplies them with connecting rods.

http://www.pankl.com/

Another little company called VECA makes a bunch of their other parts using EnginSoft software..

http://www.veca.it/index_home.htm
Machines are fixed with tools and parts and people with kindness and understanding.

User avatar
f1italia
0
Joined: 29 Jun 2007, 03:13

Re: Mahle pistons

Post

GrndLkNatv wrote:Mahle supplies Ferrari with pistons as well. Pankl supplies them with connecting rods.

http://www.pankl.com/

Another little company called VECA makes a bunch of their other parts using EnginSoft software..

http://www.veca.it/index_home.htm
Ferrari has been using Mahle Pistons for a long time now. I think they also use them in there production cars.

GrndLkNatv
GrndLkNatv
1
Joined: 03 Oct 2007, 18:31
Location: Northglenn, Colorado

Re: Mahle pistons

Post

f1italia wrote:
GrndLkNatv wrote:Mahle supplies Ferrari with pistons as well. Pankl supplies them with connecting rods.

http://www.pankl.com/

Another little company called VECA makes a bunch of their other parts using EnginSoft software..

http://www.veca.it/index_home.htm
Ferrari has been using Mahle Pistons for a long time now. I think they also use them in there production cars.
There are in my production car....
Machines are fixed with tools and parts and people with kindness and understanding.

User avatar
safeaschuck
1
Joined: 23 Oct 2008, 07:18

Re: Mahle pistons

Post

Lets see if I can get this rolling again...

Crucial to the piston/rings is the cylinder bore itself.

There are 2 cylinder bore treatments which are by far the most popular choices for motorsport applications.

1. Nickasil is a Mahle trademark although there are many other providers of chemically similar electroplating services, can be layered on very thick (for electroplate) in a relatively short time with good conformity. Particularly good when the material being plated has low impurities, cast iron generally does not plate well but steel and alloys do. Hardness values mean diamond honing stones are required to produce a cross hatch pattern.

2. Sume-Bore is a Sulzer-Metco product (other good providers are available) and uses a rotating head to spray plasma at extremely high velocity into the bore substrate material. Can cover almost anything, hardness values below Nickasil (?).

There are 3 primary block types within motorsport.

1. Parent metal bores, where the material used in the casting of the block is suitable to be used as the cylinder bore running surface, mainly cast iron, as found in cars since the beginning of time and still surprisingly widely used, particularly because it requires no specialist bore work to be ready to use, the ability to have cast iron bores honed into a cross hatch pattern for oil retention is widespread and cost effective. This group also includes newer technologies such as the Alusil type by Kolbenschmidt where an aluminium block consists of about 30% silicon purely to improve the wear properties of the bore, specailist iron based piston coatings are required in Alusil bores as the characterstics of piston and bore material are close enough to induce seizure.
You will notice that this effectively reverses the role of piston and bore material, the iron now being on the piston and indeed Alusil blocks do not use a crosshatch pattern for oil retention, a chemical etch is performed on the bores to remove aluminium deposits and expose silicon particles.
Typically used in Porsche engines since the 944 up to currently used in 997, not including GT3 engine, a similar technology also used in latest Toyota 190hp 1.8 VVT engines.
Parent bores allow thin gaps between cylinders giving light compact engine blocks but are subject to several compromises, heat dissipation becomes difficult between bores and the material choices cause problems, iron blocks are heavy, Alusil blocks can be brittle and require thickening in many areas to avoid breakages and this can add quite a bit of weight. Both Iron and alusil have realtivly short service life when subjected to prolonged high revs/load.

2. Linered blocks - Non structural (dry liner). A thin layer of material which has superior wear properties to the material of the block is inserted or applied to the bore to improve performance/duration of lubrication properties, this can include the coatings listed above, among others or a thin steel, alloy or even iron liner (possibly with a coating of its own applied) inserted into an over-bored block. This is most commonly found on production based engines which have been modified for Motorsport. Alloy Audi V8's can be found with thin alloy liners coated with Nickasil, Iron Cosworth YB straight 4's may use Nickasil coated steel liners, BMW V8's may have Nickasil coating directly on the bore material.
If a coated metal liner is used, expansion characteristics must be taken into account i.e. no alloy liners in an iron block, in order to be a good fit in a cold block they may over expand and crease at running temperatures. Electroplating or spray coatings generally keep excellent conformity across the temperature range.
Using a thin metal liner is a good way to re-use blocks which have been re-bored/re-honed too many times due to wear, it also allows replacement of individual cylinders if damage occurs in just one or two. Essentially used to extend the life of rare, or valuable engine blocks, or where the parent metal is unsuitable for the desired coating, or the structure of the block means a thicker liner would damage the structural integrity.
Plating directly onto the block (essentially a thin liner) is excellent for weight/size saving and a popular choice amongst the 'money no option' teams with a ready supply of good quality blocks but often requires specialist tooling or long set-up times and can be expensive. Also usually can only take 1 or two re-hones before having to be chemically stripped using aggressive acids which can damage the block if not carefully executed. Bore coatings are generally less conductive of heat than iron, and even alloy's which means they cannot be made excessively thick or they may cause overheating issues. Conformity drops off at excessive thickness too.
Generally known as dry linering because non of the liner comes into direct contact with coolant solution.

3. Linered blocks - Structural. Thick steel liners can beef up an inherently weak alloy block, if the area around the main caps is chunky enough the liners can seat at the bottom of the block and transfer torque from the head bolts directly into this area whilst the diameter of the liner can resist the combustion forces with less deflection. Particularly useful on heavily turbo'd applications, where sleeving down and reducing cc's whilst using much higher boost may give more reliable power.
Nissan V6's take this well. Popular in drag racing where coolant chambers can also be filled to beef up block structure. In some cases the block may have individual cylinder towers (open deck) which can be completely machined away and replaced with a stand alone liner (wet liner).

I felt the need to inject some semi technical chat into the mechanical section of this site as I'm getting a little tired of politics and don;t know enough about aero, so discuss away, I have a little more to come on bore shape, hot honing and surface finishes but this has taken me far too long and I've got stuff to do!!!
FYI, although I can't say what the F1 teams are currently using I can say that you would be quite surprised (unless you already know!, which I doubt :wink: ) the variety of ways in which this is approached, considering the engines rules are so tight and the accuracy of simulation is relatively high it's amazing that there is still more than one way to skin a cat, even in F1.

(edited for readability!)

User avatar
safeaschuck
1
Joined: 23 Oct 2008, 07:18

Re: Mahle pistons

Post

Wet linering an Alusil block:

http://www.lnengineering.com/boxster.html


A bit about getting a good bore shape and finish:

http://www.spearsenterprises.com/pdf/cy ... ishing.pdf

Belatti
Belatti
33
Joined: 10 Jul 2007, 21:48
Location: Argentina

Re: Mahle pistons

Post

Thanks Chuck, you made my friday morning interesting! :)

I got some basic knowledge about piston and rings, and even piston pins, but in liners Im a bit ignorant, so, thanks again!
"You need great passion, because everything you do with great pleasure, you do well." -Juan Manuel Fangio

"I have no idols. I admire work, dedication and competence." -Ayrton Senna

riff_raff
riff_raff
132
Joined: 24 Dec 2004, 10:18

Re: Mahle pistons

Post

safeaschuck,

The main benefits of aluminum bores is that they have a CTE that matches an aluminum piston, and the heat transfer through the liner wall is much better than with a ferrous liner.

The best aluminum liner treatment is still Nikasil. It is super hard silicon-carbide "islands" surrounded by a supporting matrix of nickle plating. The SiC islands stick up higher than the surrounding nickle matrix, and act as the wear surface. The valleys in the nickle matrix around each SiC island act as oil reservoirs. Plus the thin nickle matrix is flexible enough to accommodate the high thermal expansion and contraction rates of the aluminum liner without flaking off.

Other types of aluminum blocks/bores such as aluma-sil, cannot be reworked. Nikasil coatings, on the other hand, can be built-up fairly thickly. The only downside to Nikasil, is that it requires a very expensive custom electrode to plate each bore size.

Regards,
Terry
"Q: How do you make a small fortune in racing?
A: Start with a large one!"

User avatar
safeaschuck
1
Joined: 23 Oct 2008, 07:18

Re: Mahle pistons

Post

riff_raff wrote:The best aluminum liner treatment is still Nikasil
Agreed.

riff_raff wrote:Plus the thin nickle matrix is flexible enough to accommodate the high thermal expansion and contraction rates of the aluminum liner without flaking off.
It's fantastic, a nickasil plated liner can be crushed in a vice until pretty much flat and the coating will still be firmly in place.

riff_raff wrote:The only downside to Nikasil, is that it requires a very expensive custom electrode to plate each bore size.
That is not strictly true :? I can't go into it any further though as we are getting to the point where most firms would see this as specific enough to be hard won proprietary information. What a cop out eh? :)

For what it's worth though I think the Nickasil process should come out very competitively priced against plasma spray.

I will get round to putting more detailed stuff up here.

Professor
Professor
1
Joined: 22 Feb 2009, 17:33

F1 Pistons

Post

I do not know very much about F1 pistons, but I ran across a few pics of F1 pistons, and I hope that the mechanical engineers here could share some of what they know. The ones on the link are suppossedly from a 2001 V10 Ferrari.

http://www.usf1formula1.com/2010/02/f1- ... lood1.html

manchild
manchild
12
Joined: 03 Jun 2005, 10:54

Re: F1 Pistons

Post

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image