2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

[djos]

Is the MGU-H for road car use at all ?

no ....

uniquely an MGU-H recovers free power from piston engine exhaust 'kinetic' pulses - free as backpressure isn't needed
this is bonus of about 10% power - without any increase in fuel consumption
supercharged or NA
if the exhaust is energetic ie the ICE isn't throttled to low % power/torque (as it is in road car driving)
nothing else can do this - terrestrially
(ok pulses are used in 'tuned length' exhaust systems - arguably recovering some power at some rpm ....
and there's maybe some question of pulse 'competition' eg do/don't F1 tuned length exhausts cost turbine recovery ?)
Wright & USSR made 20000 such engines - exhaust turbine recovery sent mechanically not electrically to crankshaft

plus of course recovery turbines simultaneously recover exhaust backpressure-related power if there is BP

unless ....
as Wuzak says car ICE sized to run at full power/torque eg in a series hybrid could use a power recovery turbine
mechanically or (presumably) electrically

What was the purpose of the MGU-H, what was the FIA and engineers trying to get at and to achieve ?

The OEM’s demanded it. And then they discovered the system was too expensive and not road relevant.

[wuzak]

What was the purpose of the MGU-H, what was the FIA and engineers trying to get at and to achieve ?

The purpose of the MGUH is energy recovery.

The bonus of the MGUH as used in F1 is that turbo lag can be completely eliminated. Turbo lag being, according to the Renault boss at the time, in the tens of seconds for the big turbos being used.

The MGUH recovered more energy per lap than the MGUK. It made hybrid work for high speed racing cars.

btw, your beloved Porsche 919 also had an MGUH. The difference being that it was not connected to the turbo, but to a secondary turbine.

[wuzak]

Road cars use regen braking which is basically what the MGU-K does anyway just without the annoying acronym.

And in road cars the MGUK is used for regenerative braking and for low speeds and for standing starts.


Regarding standing starts, I have not seen any reference in the 2026 rules that prohibits using the MGUK below 100km/h after a race start, as it is in the current rules.

That is a good thing, as they would look rather tardy without the MGUK.

5.4.11 With the exception of cars starting or resuming the race from the pit lane, the MGU-K may only be used during a standing start once the car has reached 50km/h.

So can’t be used off the line.

Thanks Henry.

[wuzak]

as Wuzak says car ICE sized to run at full power/torque eg in a series hybrid could use a power recovery turbine
mechanically or (presumably) electrically

In a series hybrid there would be a a generator connected to the crankshaft, so an MGU on the turbine would be unnecessary. The engine would run at constant rpm.

[Zynerji]

I'm so depressed about these new engines.

I simply cannot wrap my mind around how much F1 goes out of its way to be mediocre. I can only blame it on the leadership not having a clear vision, and the nuts to carry it through to completion.

[djos]

I'm so depressed about these new engines.

I simply cannot wrap my mind around how much F1 goes out of its way to be mediocre. I can only blame it on the leadership not having a clear vision, and the nuts to carry it through to completion.

Yeah, I'm pretty disappointed too (a very underwhelming concept) - however, I'll wait till I see and hear them on-track before I make my full judgement.

[Zynerji]

I'm so depressed about these new engines.

I simply cannot wrap my mind around how much F1 goes out of its way to be mediocre. I can only blame it on the leadership not having a clear vision, and the nuts to carry it through to completion.

Yeah, I'm pretty disappointed too (a very underwhelming concept) - however, I'll wait till I see and hear them on-track before I make my full judgement.

Spec a current engine design (control engine), give to teams. Teams can modify engine, but all changes are published to other teams.

Cheap, powerful, current tech (losing MGUH is backsliding idiocy if staying hybrid).

I'd rather just see the 3L V10's with zero- carbon synthetic fuels.

And holy sh*t, if limiting the number of engines, just allow the teams to rebuild them! How many DNF from seal/bearing failure or ring failure since 2009? How many engines blown up on dyno just to get 3 to make it 24 races?

F1 is like someone with a self-asphyxiation kink, and it needs to stop.

[djos]

Yeah, I'm pretty disappointed too (a very underwhelming concept) - however, I'll wait till I see and hear them on-track before I make my full judgement.

Spec a current engine design (control engine), give to teams. Teams can modify engine, but all changes are published to other teams.

Cheap, powerful, current tech (losing MGUH is backsliding idiocy if staying hybrid).

I'd rather just see the 3L V10's with zero- carbon synthetic fuels.

And holy sh*t, if limiting the number of engines, just allow the teams to rebuild them! How many DNF from seal/bearing failure or ring failure since 2009? How many engines blown up on dyno just to get 3 to make it 24 races?

F1 is like someone with a self-asphyxiation kink, and it needs to stop.

I'd love that formula too - but realistically no OEM makes V10's anymore so they'd all baulk at the idea.

F1 would be better off bringing back the 2.4ltr V8's with those rules and making the OEM's start with the final Cosworth F1 V8.

[Zynerji]

Yeah, I'm pretty disappointed too (a very underwhelming concept) - however, I'll wait till I see and hear them on-track before I make my full judgement.

Spec a current engine design (control engine), give to teams. Teams can modify engine, but all changes are published to other teams.

Cheap, powerful, current tech (losing MGUH is backsliding idiocy if staying hybrid).

I'd rather just see the 3L V10's with zero- carbon synthetic fuels.

And holy sh*t, if limiting the number of engines, just allow the teams to rebuild them! How many DNF from seal/bearing failure or ring failure since 2009? How many engines blown up on dyno just to get 3 to make it 24 races?

F1 is like someone with a self-asphyxiation kink, and it needs to stop.

I'd love that formula too - but realistically no OEM makes V10's anymore so they'd all baulk at the idea.

F1 would be better off bringing back the 2.4ltr V8's with those rules and making the OEM's start with the final Cosworth F1 V8.

I'm thinking the OEM's need to be the last people considered in anything concerning what is best for F1.

The fans own F1. If they stop watching, the sport dies and the OEMs will just pimp themselves somewhere else.

They are advertisers, and should be treated as such.

[djos]

I agree, but they make the engines so that makes it tricky.

[wuzak]

I'm so depressed about these new engines.

I simply cannot wrap my mind around how much F1 goes out of its way to be mediocre. I can only blame it on the leadership not having a clear vision, and the nuts to carry it through to completion.

Yeah, I'm pretty disappointed too (a very underwhelming concept) - however, I'll wait till I see and hear them on-track before I make my full judgement.

Spec a current engine design (control engine), give to teams. Teams can modify engine, but all changes are published to other teams.

Cheap, powerful, current tech (losing MGUH is backsliding idiocy if staying hybrid).

I'd rather just see the 3L V10's with zero- carbon synthetic fuels.

And holy sh*t, if limiting the number of engines, just allow the teams to rebuild them! How many DNF from seal/bearing failure or ring failure since 2009? How many engines blown up on dyno just to get 3 to make it 24 races?

F1 is like someone with a self-asphyxiation kink, and it needs to stop.

The easiest way to fix the 2026 rules is to modify them to be more suitable.

I would ditch the MGUK and ES from the 2026 regs, instantly saving 55kg.

I'd try to get 5-10kg more from the ICE minimum weight.

Change the fuel flow regs from:

EF = 0.27 * N +165, maximum 3000MJ/h from 10,500rpm to red line.

To

EF = 0.35 * N +125, maximum 4500MJ/h from 12,500rpm to red line.

Allow anti-lag systems.

I would make gearboxes 6 speed instead of 8, and allow final drive ratio changes.

Shorten the chassis.
Narrow the front wing and bodywork.

Try to get minimum weight down to 700kg, including driver.


I would think that this would give an engine of around 800hp.Anti-lag will make some noise and, hopefully, spit some flame.

Lighter cars will be more nimble, which should make them look faster.

[wuzak]

Yeah, I'm pretty disappointed too (a very underwhelming concept) - however, I'll wait till I see and hear them on-track before I make my full judgement.

With a bit of money you could modify an older car (2014-2016) to replicate these rules.

The engine won't be as good as today's, but it could be tuned to simulate the performance. Adapt a motor from Formula E, and simulate away.

I think the earlier models would be better, as they have less drag than the current models, which is something that the 2026 cars will aim for.

[Stu]

Latest HPA podcast has an interview with one of the RBPT Engineers (dedicated to 2026 power units), very good, very interesting, very informative. Don’t expect to hear any secrets or IP leakage, but well worth a listen.

Available on your pod-catcher of choice.

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/t ... 0585004110

Episode 064

[wuzak]

Latest HPA podcast has an interview with one of the RBPT Engineers (dedicated to 2026 power units), very good, very interesting, very informative. Don’t expect to hear any secrets or IP leakage, but well worth a listen.

Available on your pod-catcher of choice.

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/t ... 0585004110

Episode 064

So the RBPT engineer was of the opinion that driving the MGUK with the ICE would not be allowed.

That leaves braking zones to recover energy - braking and lift-and-coast.

And he confirmed that the MGUK will largely be used for torque filling.

[johnny vee]

Latest HPA podcast has an interview with one of the RBPT Engineers (dedicated to 2026 power units), very good, very interesting, very informative. Don’t expect to hear any secrets or IP leakage, but well worth a listen.

Available on your pod-catcher of choice.

Thank you Stu. This is great!
https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/t ... 0585004110

Episode 064