2022 São Paulo Grand Prix - Interlagos, Nov 11 - 13

[Bill]

Red Bull played the engine freeze extremely well to their advantage. For others to "catch up" there will need to be some big "reliability upgrades". And that's fairly difficult to achieve in a fairly mature engine environment.

It's going to need to a better chassis / aero set up to beat the Red Bull going forward in the next 2-3 years.

Everybody had the same opportunity and time prior to freeze. Infact, Ferrari was in worse position when they accepted the rules for freezing the engines. They could have vetoed the change to play it safe to reclaim lost power. It was bold. Mercedes was in driver's position at that time with their engine as that was the most powerful engine and I am sure they were happy to sign the change.

I think Red Bull and Honda downplayed their own hand to fool the others. There was the whole reason for the freeze - Honda leaving and Red Bull not being able to compete if there was no freeze. And then we see Honda turning back up again afterwards.

As I said, they played it well.

the cost of these pu units were getting out of hand some terms like merc have spent more than a decade develping them.so the only way to find more performance was to spend big,no reasonable ceo was going to say no to cost reduction its the god they worship even those who were slightly behind like Renault

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[PlatinumZealot]

Predicting a win for the home team!

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[f1jcw]

Red Bull played the engine freeze extremely well to their advantage. For others to "catch up" there will need to be some big "reliability upgrades". And that's fairly difficult to achieve in a fairly mature engine environment.

It's going to need to a better chassis / aero set up to beat the Red Bull going forward in the next 2-3 years.

Everybody had the same opportunity and time prior to freeze. Infact, Ferrari was in worse position when they accepted the rules for freezing the engines. They could have vetoed the change to play it safe to reclaim lost power. It was bold. Mercedes was in driver's position at that time with their engine as that was the most powerful engine and I am sure they were happy to sign the change.

I think Red Bull and Honda downplayed their own hand to fool the others. There was the whole reason for the freeze - Honda leaving and Red Bull not being able to compete if there was no freeze. And then we see Honda turning back up again afterwards.

As I said, they played it well.

Surprised more hasn’t being said. Teams agreed to it to help, then was double crossed.

[organic]

Everybody had the same opportunity and time prior to freeze. Infact, Ferrari was in worse position when they accepted the rules for freezing the engines. They could have vetoed the change to play it safe to reclaim lost power. It was bold. Mercedes was in driver's position at that time with their engine as that was the most powerful engine and I am sure they were happy to sign the change.

I think Red Bull and Honda downplayed their own hand to fool the others. There was the whole reason for the freeze - Honda leaving and Red Bull not being able to compete if there was no freeze. And then we see Honda turning back up again afterwards.

As I said, they played it well.

Surprised more hasn’t being said. Teams agreed to it to help, then was double crossed.

Explain more where the double crossing was?

[f1jcw]

Red Bull pushed hard for the freeze as they was going to be without official works support and would need to update their own engines.

That didn’t happen did it.

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Red Bull pushed hard for the freeze as they was going to be without official works support and would need to update their own engines.

That didn’t happen did it.

If you understood the nuance of Honda's exit of the sport, you'd realize how daft this is

Secondly, engine freezes for the years before a large engine regulation change are completely standard in F1, which is likely why all the manufacturers agreed to it.

[AR3-GP]

Red Bull pushed hard for the freeze as they was going to be without official works support and would need to update their own engines.

That didn’t happen did it.

This has been gone over multiple times in many places on this forum. Honda quit under the old CEO. They are shifting back to F1 under their new CEO. This is the downside to manufacturer involvement in F1 (outside of Ferrari). Teams are victim to the whims and fancies of suits in board rooms.

[Spacepace]

I think Red Bull and Honda downplayed their own hand to fool the others. There was the whole reason for the freeze - Honda leaving and Red Bull not being able to compete if there was no freeze. And then we see Honda turning back up again afterwards.

As I said, they played it well.

Surprised more hasn’t being said. Teams agreed to it to help, then was double crossed.

Explain more where the double crossing was?

He never said they double crossed anyone. Only that Red Bull played it off well. Regulation power plays encouraged by Red Bull that they knew was to there advantage. They'd know what the engine was putting out on the dyno. Nothing wrong with maneuvering themselves like that. Red Bull are well put together team

[organic]

Surprised more hasn’t being said. Teams agreed to it to help, then was double crossed.

Explain more where the double crossing was?

He never said they double crossed anyone. Only that Red Bull played it off well. Regulation power plays encouraged by Red Bull that they knew was to there advantage. They'd know what the engine was putting out on the dyno. Nothing wrong with maneuvering themselves like that. Red Bull are well put together team

I directly quoted someone saying that teams were double crossed by this. Therefore I cannot understand this reply.. did you see the message I quoted?

[mendis]

Red Bull played the engine freeze extremely well to their advantage. For others to "catch up" there will need to be some big "reliability upgrades". And that's fairly difficult to achieve in a fairly mature engine environment.

It's going to need to a better chassis / aero set up to beat the Red Bull going forward in the next 2-3 years.

Everybody had the same opportunity and time prior to freeze. Infact, Ferrari was in worse position when they accepted the rules for freezing the engines. They could have vetoed the change to play it safe to reclaim lost power. It was bold. Mercedes was in driver's position at that time with their engine as that was the most powerful engine and I am sure they were happy to sign the change.

I think Red Bull and Honda downplayed their own hand to fool the others. There was the whole reason for the freeze - Honda leaving and Red Bull not being able to compete if there was no freeze. And then we see Honda turning back up again afterwards.

As I said, they played it well.

The engine freeze discussion came in picture in early 2020 and there was general consensus among all manufacturers for the freeze by late 2020. It was at that time, Honda decided to leave. Like I said, Mercedes had the strongest engine in 2020 when these discussions came in and consensus was made. Nobody would have thought Mercedes would go backwards. Hindsight is beautiful thing which makes one believe Honda played it well, while they were in no position to do so.

[AR3-GP]

Everybody had the same opportunity and time prior to freeze. Infact, Ferrari was in worse position when they accepted the rules for freezing the engines. They could have vetoed the change to play it safe to reclaim lost power. It was bold. Mercedes was in driver's position at that time with their engine as that was the most powerful engine and I am sure they were happy to sign the change.

I think Red Bull and Honda downplayed their own hand to fool the others. There was the whole reason for the freeze - Honda leaving and Red Bull not being able to compete if there was no freeze. And then we see Honda turning back up again afterwards.

As I said, they played it well.

The engine freeze discussion came in picture in early 2020 and there was general consensus among all manufacturers for the freeze by late 2020. It was at that time, Honda decided to leave. Like I said, Mercedes had the strongest engine in 2020 when these discussions came in and consensus was made. Nobody would have thought Mercedes would go backwards. Hindsight is beautiful thing which makes one believe Honda played it well, while they were in no position to do so.

Honda will be quite chuffed though. Apparently, there's a few on here that they've managed to convince that their decision to pull out was anything but a misguided disaster stroke whereby they poured billions into an engine only to lose the naming rights when the getting got good. It is Honda Motor company board room dithering that has cost them their seat at the table in F1. Gone are the big Honda graphics, replaced by a small sticker at the bottom of the engine cover as RB sold that rear wing space to ByBit for years to come.

but no no, this was all an evil plan to lose their foothold as the de-facto engine supplier for a Newey car piloted by Max Verstappen in the decade to come, all to screw over Mercedes....That must be it

[Spacepace]

Explain more where the double crossing was?

He never said they double crossed anyone. Only that Red Bull played it off well. Regulation power plays encouraged by Red Bull that they knew was to there advantage. They'd know what the engine was putting out on the dyno. Nothing wrong with maneuvering themselves like that. Red Bull are well put together team

I directly quoted someone saying that teams were double crossed by this. Therefore I cannot understand this reply.. did you see the message I quoted?

Nope haha. Only was reading madmax quote

[Wouter]