2010 regulation row on £40m budget cap

[WhiteBlue]

I do think the conflict is finished. The cap is in place. The new teams are accepting that they can compete sucessfully in 2010 and 2011. FOTA had their grand guesture. No issues remaining.

[Scotracer]

So much for restricted revs, double KERS and adjustable wings

[timbo]

I do think the conflict is finished. The cap is in place. The new teams are accepting that they can compete sucessfully in 2010 and 2011. FOTA had their grand guesture. No issues remaining.

Not sure

Q. It's on the basis that Concorde is signed on June 12 and the regulations are amended by the FIA - have you made good progress towards getting this agreed?

JH: I'm not sure that it is. It's just the clear position of the teams.

Q. What response have you had from the FIA?

JH: So far, I'm not sure a lot. There have been some informal discussions on the technical content on 2010 but I don't think as yet we've had a formal acknowledgement.

[bill shoe]

Gridwalker-- OK, I understand this thread was getting a bit snippy and un-useful, and that's why you wanted to refocus the topic a bit in the new thread.

However, I think it's cart-ahead-of-the-horse to go to a different thread and ponder the fate of would-be new teams when the situation with existing teams is undecided.

Again, most media stories are implying there is some kind of agreement between FIA and FOTA when there is no such thing. The Auotsport.com Q&A with John Howit doesn't beat around the bush on this point, so I conclude the misrepresentation of this situation is due to confused reporting rather than FOTA trying to misrepresent the situation.

John Howit specifically says that FOTA made no agreement at all for a budget cap for 2010 or any other season. I have no idea why people think there is an agreement in place for a $100 million cap in 2010.

We know Williams has entered a valid application in the championship, and everything beyond that is just dueling press conferences.

[donskar]

No concession from Max as I predicted . Ferrari are in the French civil courts. They are serious. 14 days to go. The teams will not sign and Bernie will be without a series. ....

Max is a N@z! socialist tyrant pig who doesn't believe in gravity...

And please note that the budget cap is by far a secondary issue. .

I just went back to demonstrate the quality of our valued member gcdugas predictions. The statement in bold was emphasised by me.

So what? Are we here to discuss technical aspects of Formula One or to sit back and pick each other apart? I have zero respect for people who think that their contribution to a discussion is to attack and find wrong other's posts.

+1. F1Technical should be a place for opinions and discussion, not tiresome pronouncements that attempt to stifle opinions.

[WhiteBlue]

So Donskar, who do you think stifels opinions? Me? LOL, in my book everybody can spread his theories to his hearts content. Just let me have some fun when it turns out to be rubbish.

[Scotracer]

So Donskar, who do you think stifels opinions? Me? LOL, in my book everybody can spread his theories to his hearts content. Just let me have some fun when it turns out to be rubbish.

Which in turn would do...what, exactly?

[WhiteBlue]

I provided a bit of light amusement, nothing more. Perhaps the gentleman in question will work harder in future with his crystal ball.

To all those who think that a Concord Agreement will make a big difference to governance of F1 I would like to remind you of the fact that the new Concord would have to be consistent with the appendix 5 of the Sporting regulations of 2008 and 2009:

APPENDIX 5

RULE CHANGES

1. Changes to the Technical Regulations will be proposed by the Technical Working Group (TWG)
consisting of one senior technical representative from each team and chaired by a representative of the
FIA.
2. Changes to the Sporting Regulations will be proposed by the Sporting Working Group (SWG) consisting
of one senior representative from each team and chaired by a representative of the FIA.
3. Decisions in the TWG and SWG will be taken by a simple majority vote. The FIA representative will not
vote unless the teams’ representatives are equally divided, in which case he will exercise a casting vote.
4. Proposals from the TWG and the SWG will go to the Formula One Commission consisting of six
representatives from the teams, five representatives from the race promoters and one representative
each from the Commercial Rights Holder and the FIA. At least two race promoters must be from Europe
and at least two from outside Europe. Decisions of the Commission will be by simple majority. The FIA
will have a casting vote in the event of equality.
5. The Formula One Commission may accept or refuse a proposal of the TWG or the SWG, but not amend
it. A proposal which is refused may be sent back to the relevant Working Group for further consideration.
6. Proposals accepted by the Formula One Commission will be put before the World Motor Sport Council
for a final decision. Proposals which are not accepted by the World Motor Sport Council may be sent
back to the Formula One Commission and the relevant Working Group for further consideration.
7. Changes required for safety reasons will be considered separately by the FIA, which will take into
account any representations made by the TWG or SWG.

The upshot from this is that FOTA meetings will not substitute for TWG and SWG meetings. So unless they bother to do those meetings the FOTA proposals are not in line with the rule change mechanisms as they stand. Without qualified proposals there would be no need to have an F1 commission meeting. It stands to hope that the teams remember that. Their complaints about governance problems could be based on a memory lapse of what they signed in the past.

There is a bit of a grey area which may cause some probems. What will happen if there are no commission meetings hence no initiatives which the WMSC can sanction? I reckon the counsil would then still act on its own initiative if it sees fit.

[Chaparral]

Gridwalker-- OK, I understand this thread was getting a bit snippy and un-useful, and that's why you wanted to refocus the topic a bit in the new thread.

However, I think it's cart-ahead-of-the-horse to go to a different thread and ponder the fate of would-be new teams when the situation with existing teams is undecided.

Again, most media stories are implying there is some kind of agreement between FIA and FOTA when there is no such thing. The Auotsport.com Q&A with John Howit doesn't beat around the bush on this point, so I conclude the misrepresentation of this situation is due to confused reporting rather than FOTA trying to misrepresent the situation.

John Howit specifically says that FOTA made no agreement at all for a budget cap for 2010 or any other season. I have no idea why people think there is an agreement in place for a $100 million cap in 2010.

We know Williams has entered a valid application in the championship, and everything beyond that is just dueling press conferences.

G'day Bill - your entirely correct this isnt a done deal by a long shot - there are more twists coming before June 12 thats to be sure. I had a conversation with a journo mate tonight and he questioned whether Toyota would indeed continue in 2010 (and for that sake Renault) - both are under the pump from the respective boards - if both pulled the pin would they revert to supplying power plants or just pull out completely I dont know - the 2 power plants up front this season are Mercedes and Renault so it may make sense for Renault to become a supplier and the most likely scenario is Briatore buys the team for whatever - Toyota well Frank would have talked to Cosworth a little while ago I would have thought. The other thing discussed was - is Brawn just warming the seat for Honda to come back in - reasoning is they have funded this year thats without doubt - Brawn san you believe in this so heres the tools and cash prove it and thats exactly what he is doing. Brawn in the broader sense means nothing but Honda now thats a different ball game - you have to imagine it would be worth a couple of hundred mil to Brawn personally and he continues to lead them to further glory over the next few years - the Honda pull out has always bothered me as (having worked for the Japanese in the late 80s) its such a loss of face to be seen to fail and if this was a interim thing it would work for both parties very lucratively - lets face it Brawn and Honda had no other option - but its just a theory.

[donskar]

Putting aside opinions, wild guesses, fervent hopes and astute deductions, has there been any substantive public statement from Max's side of the table?

So far, it appears that FOTA has entered conditionally, that condition being some fairly substantial compromise from the Mosley party.

Do we have anything beyond the Autosport Q&A with John Howett?

I don't see much sign of a definite agreement in the following:

Q. What response have you had from the FIA?
JH: So far, I'm not sure a lot. There have been some informal discussions on the technical content on 2010 but I don't think as yet we've had a formal acknowledgement.

Q. Is the budget cap, or whatever it is called, is still under discussion for 2011. What's FOTA's position on that?
JH: FOTA has reached a very concrete agreement among the members on a very constructive method of reducing costs. But I don't think at the moment that there's any discussion of a budget cap.

Q. Does the point we're at now represent a real chance of bringing the argument over 2010 to a close?
JH: I really don't know. It depends on how open minded everyone is.

I am very happy to see that FOTA has not lost sight of a key issue (I think the key issue)that has received far too little (public) discusssion:

Q. Are you confident that this will be the resolution?

JH: . . .
We just want to compete on an even playing field, we are all capable of managing our businesses constructively, we're all open to discuss on how we can integrate new entrants in a professional and correct way. The one thing that's always missed is that we need to grow the cake and we need to understand how much of the remainder of the revenue is re-invested in the sport.

[gridwalker]

The issue of Honda money has been stuck in my mind all season, as money buys influence :there's no such thing as a free lunch.

Didn't the team ownership pass over for a nominal amount anyway? Honda wouldn't just give the team away with a big wad of cash.

"So long and thanks ..."???
I don't think so

For a team that is so dominant, their sponsorship arrangements are minimal to say the very least. Honda's money is clearly serving them well. Honda wouldn't be where they are today without some exceedingly competant lawyers & would not be providing this much funding without retaining some kind of interest until the financing runs out. Pulling out of being an engine supplier for a year would also give them time to fine tune the limited upgrades they would have been allowed to make to their powerplant at the end of 2008 (all in the name of equalicy ) ...

Brawn is also doing all of the cost cutting for Honda now, in a way that would have been much more difficult for a big team to do. I'm sure that the change of ownership enabled Brawn to enforce redundancy on much more lenient terms than Honda would have had to pay out.

Is Brawn getting a head-start by building the new low-budget Honda team early? Honda throwing the team a financial lifeline so that Ross Brawn can show them how the team should be run?

Doubtful, but not entirely out of the realms of possibility.

The only real problem that I can see for Honda would be a matter of how much PR damage would they suffer from the abrupt about-face.

This isn't the first time that Honda have left the sport & they have been known to switch their team allegiance abruptly, but it always seems forgotten within a few seasons.

Will Honda return to Brawn, so they can dominate the new budget cap era?

I wouldn't bet my tin-foil-hat on it

[gcdugas]

As to Honda etc. I see the lack of sponsorship on Brawn's cars as another short coming of the illustrious Mr. Nick Fry. His vision doesn't seem to go much past this present season. I can't see Honda returning after such a dominating season. How could they explain the inevitable decline in performance that the 2010 season will bring? Especially if reports of their engine being 50HP down on the MB unit are true. I think Mr. Brundle was the source of that report from some Brackley insiders. No, I don't see them returning.

Rumors of Toyota's departure are unfounded and one can only speculate as to their source and motive. Toyota have been involved in bringing governing stability to the sport via the FOTA. The agreement to be confirmed June 12th commits all the FOTA teams until 2012 with new democratic procedures for the rules and a bigger split of the commercial pie. F1 can become a self sustaining profitable division for each competitor. If you read the FOTA statement, and I find it hard to believe that the FIA agreed to it, the statement reads like a set of FOTA ultimatums... like this...

1)The Concorde Agreement is signed by all parties before 12th June 2009, after which all FOTA teams will commit to competing in Formula One until 2012. The renewal of the Concorde Agreement will provide security for the future of the sport by binding all parties in a formal relationship that will ensure stability via sound governance.

2) The basis of the 2010 regulations will be the current 2009 regulations, amended in accordance with proposals that FOTA has submitted to the FIA.

All FOTA teams’ entries for the 2010 FIA Formula One World Championship have been submitted today on the understanding that (a) all FOTA teams will be permitted to compete during the 2010 Formula One Season on an identical regulatory basis and (b) that they may only be accepted as a whole.

This is very good and very assertive by the teams. It looks like Max and the FIA will be restrained to their proper place with "sound governance".

And the rules will be what the FOTA wants only. I still can't believe that the FIA accepted the applications with such strong conditions attached. Now the wait is on until June 12th when the rubber really meets the road because I can't see Max embracing something that reduces his autocracy so much..

[WhiteBlue]

From a legal stand point the FIA can simply disregard any conditions attached that they do not like. An application for participation in the championship is invalid unless they sign the paperwork that comes with the application, wich inavariably will have appendix 5 in it. Having done that they are bound by the conditions of the application. Side letters are largely irrelevant.

If they have not signed the paperwork as some remarks by Domenicali suggest the FIA can simply disregard their application and admitt more new teams. They can then come in with a late application fee again after 12 June. At least that is the situation as I see it.

So all this is just the embroidery which obviously is expected. If the FOTA teams participate in the working groups and the F1 Commission their contribution to the governance will be received and will have a positive impact on shaping the rules in the coming years. The one thing nobody should expect is a way back to veto as we had this with the old concord.

Regarding the share of revenues between FOM and FOTA nothing substantial is going to change. FOTA may get less money as the current letter of understanding split is based on their parent companies making 5 year committments. The automotive owned teams will not do this and Bernie has already announced that he will reduce payments in that case.

Any chance to get more money out of Bernie is a credible FOTA series in 2013. I will wait and see who will break ranks this time and sign up with Bernie beyond 2012. It has all happened before.

[timbo]

Here's what Domenicali had to say about cap

Q. Does the decision to conditionally sign up imply an eventual acceptance of the budget cap?

SD: Absolutely not. The request to make the 2009 regulations the starting point, means there will be no budget cap.

He also added that within the FOTA they established a plan to reduce engine/gearbox combo cost down to 6.5 mil euro. They also plan to restrict development pace by limiting the number of new aero components that may be introduced per season - something I always thought may be crucial part of cost cutting.

[bill shoe]

I think FOTA does not actually want an agreement with Max and the current FIA.

Serious offers in negotiation have to be at least somewhat appealing to your adversary. You must offer some bit of compromise, do something that allows your adversary to feel like they are saving face it they accept. You must give them at least some incentive to accept your proposal.

FOTA's demands precisely avoid any attempt at giving the FIA a graceful way to compromise. The demands are tailor made to not produce any movement toward compromise or agreement.

This means there is no possibility the "conditional" entries will be accepted by the FIA. So what is FOTA's end game? Ideas?