2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

[harty71]

Why was Georges points in Zandvoort undeserved? Unfortunately safety cars do happen and its a fact of racing. What matters is that you need to be reactive in a very short amount of time to make the most of it. Lewis (or the team) made the mess up of not pitting for fresh tyres - something every other team managed to call right. Even George made the call for Softs (against the will of the team) and made progress from it. You cant say his points were undeserved at all in that case.

Dont forget that the DNF that Lewis had, George was also in a race where he didnt score any points (Singapore).

Not sure why you are calling my post out for being anti-hamilton, apart from the reason to troll people and add insults to your post. Bit un-necessary dont you think?

You are ignoring quite a lot of factors with the SCs, when the they occured, what the respective track positions were, where Lewis was at the time they happened, how much he had to lose when pitting, how little George had to lose by pitting, etc. They could and would have pitted Lewis for new softs at Zandvoort if their only concern was being ahead of George in that race, but they were not. They were concerned about winning the race, and ceeding track position to the Red Bull at that stage would give them 0% chance to win the race, while having him staying out gave them 1 % chance of winning the race. Giving George credit for that whole thing is 100% wrong, but an easy argument for anti-Hamiltoners to go all in on since it fits their agenda.

Not to mention it was a decision made by one side of the garage, not as a team. Hence why Lewis came on the radio seconds after George pulled into the box and asked why did you pit him, and bonno responded i don't know.

If the team would have done their job properly, They would have had George back Max up to give Lewis enough of a gap to pit and still come out p1. That would have put Lewis on the same tire as Max, with George between them as a buffer, That would have been the best chance of winning!

Hamilton is just as incompetent at reading a race and strategy as the team, you can't just always blame one without the other.

Russell, just like Button has really stamped is authority and assertiveness, the only time it bit him when he was in Canada but he can be excused because he was going for glory.

[dans79]

Hamilton is just as incompetent at reading a race and strategy as the team, you can't just always blame one without the other.

lol, O really.......

How is any driver supposed to know what tires a car 10s of meters back has on, or if they are used or new. Or what the progress of a vsc or sc is, etc etc............

George got lucky pure and simple, because he has made a lot of stupid calls as well, Q3 in Canada being a good example!

I fully expect that if the championship is closer next year, George will figuratively be told to sit down and shut up a lot more often, and his side of the garage won't be allowed to make Hail Mary calls that only benefit him!

[harty71]

Hamilton is just as incompetent at reading a race and strategy as the team, you can't just always blame one without the other.

lol, O really.......

How is any driver supposed to know what tires a car 10s of meters back has on, or if they are used or new. Or what the progress of a vsc or sc is, etc etc............

George got lucky pure and simple, because he has made a lot of stupid calls as well, Q3 in Canada being a good example!

I fully expect that if the championship is closer next year, George will figuratively be told to sit down and shut up a lot more often, and his side of the garage won't be allowed to make Hail Mary calls that only benefit him!

He don't have to, he can only control or influence what he does himself and in all honesty he's been very lacklustre in that regard throughout his career.

Can you recall Hungary where he was the only one that stayed out on inters when the track was just about bone dry, if he needed to rely on the team for something like that then I don't know what else to say.

[RonMexico]

It always blows my mind how fast people are swinging in terms of performance assessment.

After the first few races Hamilton needed to retire since he was thrashed by Russell. After that, Russell was overrated since Hamilton started beating him and Russell was no longer the right choice for Mercedes as Hamilton’s successor. And now Russell won and Hamilton’s legacy might be at risk yet again.

On balance, Hamilton has been the quicker of the two drivers this season, winning the qualifying battle and it’s still close in head to head regarding races, even when not factoring in Hamilton’s bad luck with safety cars on numerous occasions which Russell benefitted from in all of those cases.

AMuS is now reporting that Hamilton indeed had floor damage worth 0.2 seconds in Brazil after Verstappens deliberate take-out attempt. Without that, he would most likely have been in Russell’s DRS zone in the last few laps, and the race would likely have turned out quite differently. None of these conversations would then even take place.

With Russell he has a proper fight on his hands, but will most likely prevail as he always has over time against his team mates. His team mate battles are actually what sets him apart from many other great drivers in the sense that he has had some very good ones, two world champions which he beat on balance, and a third one if you count Rosberg. That’s more than someone like Schumacher for example who will always have the contracted no 2 driver asterix with his records. Fighting your team mate on equal grounds will always serve your sporting legacy extremely well as long as you come out on top more often than not. And that is what Hamilton is doing.

This will be the third teammate he will have lost to and lost a championship to one of them. Another he only beat on countback.

If he loses to Russell again next year then I think a lot more spotlight will be placed upon the chariots he piloted when winning the championships with Mercedes.

It’s a matter of you frame things right?

Framing it like he ”lost” to three team mates is true, but it’s also true that two of those team mates he beat more often than he lost to them, i.e he was better over time. The third one we don’t even know about yet.

Saying he ”only won on countback” to Alonso is extremely misleading since you are happily ignoring the fact that Hamilton was a ROOKIE and beat a two time champion at the top of his game. That season alone showed his pedigree more than any other season IMO.

Again, losing to other great drivers is not bad for your legacy as long as you win more than you lose. It’s the same in all sports. The all time greats will always have lost every once in a while to other greats. Federer will have lost to Nadal, Real Madrid will have lost to FC Barcelona, Tiger Woods to Phil Mickelson (maybe, I don’t know golf). But the point is that it will happen, and those individuals or teams will still be considered all time greats. It’s how you sustain the performance over time that shows your qualities.

He was well beaten by Button in 2011. Beaten to a championship by Rosberg in 2016 in one of the most dominant cars of all time and will almost certainly be beaten by Russell in 2022.

There is no angling or framing coming from me.

He was obviously superb in 2007 against Alonso. He did however only win on countback and lost a big lead to lose the championship. Alonso had a poor season with bad mistakes at times, the worst of his career in fact.

Every driver has mitigating factors surrounding their performance but all we can really go by are the wins/losses and points.

Motorsport is unique in terms of having a teammate in identical machinery. Losing to your teammate is a notable occurance.

Hamilton has always had fantastic machinery, he has driven a race winning car in every season he has competed in formula 1. His teammates have won in all but two of those seasons and he has as yet to win in one.

[dans79]

Can you recall Hungary where he was the only one that stayed out on inters when the track was just about bone dry, if he needed to rely on the team for something like that then I don't know what else to say.

Hungary was a no win situation, by being in the first pit box, he would have to wait until every car in the train passed him, or risk an unsafe release if not a collision in the pitlane.

[harty71]

Can you recall Hungary where he was the only one that stayed out on inters when the track was just about bone dry, if he needed to rely on the team for something like that then I don't know what else to say.

Hungary was a no win situation, by being in the first pit box, he would have to wait until every car in the train passed him, or risk an unsafe release if not a collision in the pitlane.

Maybe so, but let's not kid ourselves and pretend that had an influence on his decision. I could name more but I don't want this to be a bashing session on him. He's a great driver but he does have weaknesses, strategy and the ability to read a race are some of them.

He will need to be on his A game next season to beat Russell, I think that's something we all agree on.

[Tvetovnato]

This will be the third teammate he will have lost to and lost a championship to one of them. Another he only beat on countback.

If he loses to Russell again next year then I think a lot more spotlight will be placed upon the chariots he piloted when winning the championships with Mercedes.

It’s a matter of you frame things right?

Framing it like he ”lost” to three team mates is true, but it’s also true that two of those team mates he beat more often than he lost to them, i.e he was better over time. The third one we don’t even know about yet.

Saying he ”only won on countback” to Alonso is extremely misleading since you are happily ignoring the fact that Hamilton was a ROOKIE and beat a two time champion at the top of his game. That season alone showed his pedigree more than any other season IMO.

Again, losing to other great drivers is not bad for your legacy as long as you win more than you lose. It’s the same in all sports. The all time greats will always have lost every once in a while to other greats. Federer will have lost to Nadal, Real Madrid will have lost to FC Barcelona, Tiger Woods to Phil Mickelson (maybe, I don’t know golf). But the point is that it will happen, and those individuals or teams will still be considered all time greats. It’s how you sustain the performance over time that shows your qualities.

He was well beaten by Button in 2011. Beaten to a championship by Rosberg in 2016 in one of the most dominant cars of all time and will almost certainly be beaten by Russell in 2022.

There is no angling or framing coming from me.

He was obviously superb in 2007 against Alonso. He did however only win on countback and lost a big lead to lose the championship. Alonso had a poor season with bad mistakes at times, the worst of his career in fact.

Every driver has mitigating factors surrounding their performance but all we can really go by are the wins/losses and points.

Motorsport is unique in terms of having a teammate in identical machinery. Losing to your teammate is a notable occurance.

Hamilton has always had fantastic machinery, he has driven a race winning car in every season he has competed in formula 1. His teammates have won in all but two of those seasons and he has as yet to win in one.

There is a LOT of angling and framing coming from you, again. Sure, 2011 was not great by any means, but again, he beat Button in the remaining two seasons they had. Rosberg won because of bad reliability on Hamilton’s side, nothing else. Hence why Rosberg retired the very next season since he could not sustain the challenge against Lewis, he even said it himself.

Hamilton lost the title in 2007 not because of himself, but because of the team severely fluffing the strategy in China and Brazil when the car let him down. And why are you letting Alonso off the hook with his mistakes? Isn’t that part of the game, not making those? Especially from a 2 time champ against a complete rookie?

Statistics are meaningless if not putting the context in. I can boast with that Hamilton has never beaten me in a race for example, ever. How about that? Impressed?

[DGP123]

Agree, 2011, was awful. Worst year. No excuses. However, everyone knows Hamilton lost 2016 because while leading in Malaysia his engine blew up. Would of comfortably won the title that year. Even the embarrassing backing up of Rosberg in AD showcased how lucky Rosberg was to win that year, hence why he quickly retired as the feat and luck would not be repeated.

[chrisc90]

So it appears its never Hamilton's fault for the results or titles he gets. That seems to be the way the last 2 pages on here have been laid out.

[harty71]

Agree, 2011, was awful. Worst year. No excuses. However, everyone knows Hamilton lost 2016 because while leading in Malaysia his engine blew up. Would of comfortably won the title that year. Even the embarrassing backing up of Rosberg in AD showcased how lucky Rosberg was to win that year, hence why he quickly retired as the feat and luck would not be repeated.

So it came down to 26 points, forgetting that there's hundreds more available?

If you're in a car much better than the pack, you should be beating your teammate by more points than that, especially when you're labelled as the best ever.

[RonMexico]

It’s a matter of you frame things right?

Framing it like he ”lost” to three team mates is true, but it’s also true that two of those team mates he beat more often than he lost to them, i.e he was better over time. The third one we don’t even know about yet.

Saying he ”only won on countback” to Alonso is extremely misleading since you are happily ignoring the fact that Hamilton was a ROOKIE and beat a two time champion at the top of his game. That season alone showed his pedigree more than any other season IMO.

Again, losing to other great drivers is not bad for your legacy as long as you win more than you lose. It’s the same in all sports. The all time greats will always have lost every once in a while to other greats. Federer will have lost to Nadal, Real Madrid will have lost to FC Barcelona, Tiger Woods to Phil Mickelson (maybe, I don’t know golf). But the point is that it will happen, and those individuals or teams will still be considered all time greats. It’s how you sustain the performance over time that shows your qualities.

He was well beaten by Button in 2011. Beaten to a championship by Rosberg in 2016 in one of the most dominant cars of all time and will almost certainly be beaten by Russell in 2022.

There is no angling or framing coming from me.

He was obviously superb in 2007 against Alonso. He did however only win on countback and lost a big lead to lose the championship. Alonso had a poor season with bad mistakes at times, the worst of his career in fact.

Every driver has mitigating factors surrounding their performance but all we can really go by are the wins/losses and points.

Motorsport is unique in terms of having a teammate in identical machinery. Losing to your teammate is a notable occurance.

Hamilton has always had fantastic machinery, he has driven a race winning car in every season he has competed in formula 1. His teammates have won in all but two of those seasons and he has as yet to win in one.

There is a LOT of angling and framing coming from you, again. Sure, 2011 was not great by any means, but again, he beat Button in the remaining two seasons they had. Rosberg won because of bad reliability on Hamilton’s side, nothing else. Hence why Rosberg retired the very next season since he could not sustain the challenge against Lewis, he even said it himself.

Hamilton lost the title in 2007 not because of himself, but because of the team severely fluffing the strategy in China and Brazil when the car let him down. And why are you letting Alonso off the hook with his mistakes? Isn’t that part of the game, not making those? Especially from a 2 time champ against a complete rookie?

Statistics are meaningless if not putting the context in. I can boast with that Hamilton has never beaten me in a race for example, ever. How about that? Impressed?

I'm not excusing Alonso of anything. I said he had his worst season and was error prone that year. A season sandwiched in between two of his best years. Hamilton was superb in 2007.

Rosberg won in 2016 at Suzuka. He put it out of Hamiltons reach then and managed to secure the second places he needed from there on in. Had Hamilton won that race and won out the rest of the races he would have been champion.

[MadMax]

Rosberg won in 2016 at Suzuka. He put it out of Hamiltons reach then and managed to secure the second places he needed from there on in. Had Hamilton won that race and won out the rest of the races he would have been champion.

Hamilton lost the season in Malaysia when he was leading and had Merc's only reliability retirement of the year. He lost 25 points in that moment and ended the season just 5 points behind Rosberg. Without that engine failure, Hamilton was World Champion in 2016 and Rosberg's excellent end of season performance of a win and 4 seconds wouldn't have prevented it.

[RonMexico]

Rosberg won in 2016 at Suzuka. He put it out of Hamiltons reach then and managed to secure the second places he needed from there on in. Had Hamilton won that race and won out the rest of the races he would have been champion.

Hamilton lost the season in Malaysia when he was leading and had Merc's only reliability retirement of the year. He lost 25 points in that moment and ended the season just 5 points behind Rosberg. Without that engine failure, Hamilton was World Champion in 2016 and Rosberg's excellent end of season performance of a win and 4 seconds wouldn't have prevented it.

It was only taken out of Hamiltons hands in Suzuka when Rosberg won. Seconds were all he needed to get after that

[harty71]

I've heard claims that Hamilton was losing around 2 tenths from the damage, anybody got a source for that and why didn't the team nor him really mention anything, to me it's a non story.

[dans79]

I've heard claims that Hamilton was losing around 2 tenths from the damage, anybody got a source for that and why didn't the team nor him really mention anything, to me it's a non story.

passed along by a friend from another forum!
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... sao-paulo/

The Mercedes with the number 44 carried signs of battle, which cost one to two tenths.