2022 São Paulo Grand Prix - Interlagos, Nov 11 - 13

[DDopey]

I really suggest people who talk about overspeed, out of control, to look at the video again. There was no moment at all when Verstappen was not in control or had too much speed.

[DChemTech]

Er, it depends on the frame of reference. From Max's perspective, Lewis hit him. From Lewis's perspective, Max hit him.

From the stewards perspective, it was Max's fault.

Dam! How stupid of Lewis to turn for a corner!

On my driving lessons I was always told to turn for a corner, silly me I’ve being doing it wrong all these years

Lewis is only allowed to turn the corner after Max has. Haven't you learned anything reading this forum?

What I have learned on this forum is that Max fans are much more willing to admit mistakes from 'their driver' than Lewis fans. Both here and for Silverstone, there are several Max fans that admit it takes two to tango - both drivers could have avoided this; most Max fans do note that there was an important aspect of Lewis not providing room, sure, but they do so with reasonable arguments.

Many Lewis fans seem to say "the stewards said Max was wrong so Max was wrong", dismissing counterarguments on that basis alone. With Silverstone the tendency was "Max was trying an overtake that would never work so Max was wrong", dismissing the fact that the stewards penalized Lewis, even though in the current situation that alone seems to be a decisive argument. Inconsistency at it's best - for all the insinuations towards Max fans that they hold the position that whatever their driver does is right, it is more typically the Lewis fans that actually hold that position.

The same is true for bias; insinuations of bias and ruining the forum are typically targeted at Max fans, less frequently in the other direction. I have more than once seen Max fans admit some degree of bias, or alternatively, some degree of blame for their driver. Similar introspection seems to be missing on 'the other side'; many Lewis fans seem to feel like they hold some infallibility in the debate, and can dismiss reasonable arguments on that ground.

I've said it before and will say it again, this forum would benefit quite a bit from introspection on both sides, but what I observe is that one side currently shows much more of that than the other. And I am quite tired of Max fans being accused of ruining the forum all the time, by people who exhibit the exact behavior they accuse the other party of.

[101FlyingDutchman]

Dam! How stupid of Lewis to turn for a corner!

On my driving lessons I was always told to turn for a corner, silly me I’ve being doing it wrong all these years

Lewis is only allowed to turn the corner after Max has. Haven't you learned anything reading this forum?

What I have learned on this forum is that Max fans are much more willing to admit mistakes from 'their driver' than Lewis fans. Both here and for Silverstone, there are several Max fans that admit it takes two to tango - both drivers could have avoided this; most Max fans do note that there was an important aspect of Lewis not providing room, sure, but they do so with reasonable arguments.

Many Lewis fans seem to say "the stewards said Max was wrong so Max was wrong", dismissing counterarguments on that basis alone. With Silverstone the tendency was "Max was trying an overtake that would never work so Max was wrong", dismissing the fact that the stewards penalized Lewis, even though in the current situation that alone seems to be a decisive argument. Inconsistency at it's best - for all the insinuations towards Max fans that they hold the position that whatever their driver does is right, it is more typically the Lewis fans that actually hold that position.

The same is true for bias; insinuations of bias and ruining the forum are typically targeted at Max fans, less frequently in the other direction. I have more than once seen Max fans admit some degree of bias, or alternatively, some degree of blame for their driver. Similar introspection seems to be missing on 'the other side'; many Lewis fans seem to feel like they hold some infallibility in the debate, and can dismiss reasonable arguments on that ground.

I've said it before and will say it again, this forum would benefit quite a bit from introspection on both sides, but what I observe is that one side currently shows much more of that than the other. And I am quite tired of Max fans being accused of ruining the forum all the time, by people who exhibit the exact behavior they accuse the other party of.

#micdrop Hear Hear mate. It’s what I’ve found most disappointing in circular discussions. Whenever good/solid arguments are being brought forward, it basically gets ignored. Lewis can never do any wrong seemingly in their eyes. I’d like to think we are all capable of keeping bias at the door but it’s a choice to do so.
For the health of the forum I’d urge anyone involved in these chats to take a step back and see things from both sides.

(That’s all of us, not just singling out a particular section. Because generally there have been some EXCELLENT discussions so long as it doesn’t come to this Lewis and Max bollocks)

[RZS10]

One thing i struggle to understand is the argument that all Max had to do was "make the corner" to somehow be in the right ... this is racing, he's not alone on track and he's still the attacking driver who wasn't ahead at any point into or through T2 and thus the onus of keeping it clean if given the required space* would be on him.

The question shouldn't be whether he would have stayed on track himself or whether he would have been capable of leaving Lewis space on the outside (both likely imho) - and in theory one might interpret the guidelines in a way that they say he wouldn't have to, which is a point i made in the French GP thread, mainly if you take them literally and leave out the "among the various factors" part.

Shouldn't it rather be whether there would have been contact with Lewis' car slightly further away from the inside of T2?

It is an undeniable fact that Max took more speed into T2 than Lewis despite being on a shallow line on the inside as he goes from having his front wheels roughly halfway alongside between T1 and T2 to a wheel to wheel contact, he most certainly wasn't "slowing down more than Hamilton" - that is easily visible in any camera, be it onboard of offboard.
edit: similar principle to the gif below, fixed from the helo shot

(*) This season the stewards seemingly have ruled that sufficient space on the inside isn't necessarily from the car to the white line (Austria - Perez/Russell), it rather seems that they include at least some part of the curb and in this corner it would probably also be the case (just watch anyone going through there, roughly 2/3 of the curb used + remainder of the car on track should be fair game for the "leaving space" argument)
The guidelines for s-bends are:

3. Guidelines for chicanes and s-bends:
The above guidelines would apply similarly for each corner.

"Similarly" leaves some room for the stewards, imho it also allows them to take into the account what happened in T1 when they look at T2 - it does not say "exclusively in isolation" for example, even though there might be an argument that they could be read in such a way, of course.
So the late attempt into T1 and the resulting compromised line into T2 can absolutely be a factor for consideration.

Here's a good camera for their approach to T2

Here's a 'fixed camera' composite image for their respective lines made several frames taken from the above and distorted so that the lines of the track and surroundings aligned.


Max has a similar rotation to Lewis several frames (~5m?) back when the contact occurs, he's not remotely aiming towards the ideal line or the apex of T3.

What would be the additional space Lewis should have given?
If you'd move his car a tyre's width to the left, would there be contact eventually?
How far would he have to move away from the apex and importantly the ideal line (seen taken by George ahead) to accomodate Max?

Compare the speed and approach vector of Max vs. Lewis to Pierre vs. MIck - they are both the attacking driver, listen to the revs, who accelerates for how long, who brakes/lifts when.
Pierre has a significantly better angle/line for the corner he lifts earlier and coasts through most of it and yet they almost have contact and he gets carried to the middle of the track at the very least before he gets on throttle in a much lighter car (lap 7 vs. 66). (btw this situation arguably shows what the minimum required space would/should be)

Imho the only way there is no contact is if Lewis actively avoids it, which would be jumping out of the way of a late lunge, but that's not how close racing is supposed to work, Max should have slowed down way more than Lewis because he should be capable of hugging the inside line and then the contact would not have been front wheel to front wheel, probably closer to HAM/ALO in Spa and then he wouldn't have been the one predominantly at fault.

With all the above i'd say that there would have been contact anyways, of course Lewis should/could have given a bit more space but he was the variable in this, Max was the constant that would have lead to contact, so in that regard the decision is at least comprehensible, laying a bit more blame in Max' basket and giving him the lowest possible penalty.

[101FlyingDutchman]

One thing i struggle to understand is the argument that all Max had to do was "make the corner" to somehow be in the right ... this is racing, he's not alone on track and he's still the attacking driver who wasn't ahead at any point into or through T2 and thus the onus of keeping it clean if given the required space* would be on him.

The question shouldn't be whether he would have stayed on track himself or whether he would have been capable of leaving Lewis space on the outside (both likely imho) - and in theory one might interpret the guidelines in a way that they say he wouldn't have to, which is a point i made in the French GP thread, mainly if you take them literally and leave out the "among the various factors" part.

Shouldn't it rather be whether there would have been contact with Lewis' car slightly further away from the inside of T2?

It is an undeniable fact that Max took more speed into T2 than Lewis despite being on a shallow line on the inside as he goes from having his front wheels roughly halfway alongside between T1 and T2 to a wheel to wheel contact, he most certainly wasn't "slowing down more than Hamilton" - that is easily visible in any camera, be it onboard of offboard.
(*) This season the stewards seemingly have ruled that sufficient space on the inside isn't necessarily from the car to the white line (Austria - Perez/Russell), it rather seems that they include at least some part of the curb and in this corner it would probably also be the case (just watch anyone going through there, roughly 2/3 of the curb used + remainder of the car on track should be fair game for the "leaving space" argument)
The guidelines for s-bends are:

3. Guidelines for chicanes and s-bends:
The above guidelines would apply similarly for each corner.

"Similarly" leaves some room for the stewards, imho it also allows them to take into the account what happened in T1 when they look at T2 - it does not say "exclusively in isolation" for example, even though there might be an argument that they could be read in such a way, of course.
So the late attempt into T1 and the resulting compromised line into T2 can absolutely be a factor for consideration.

Here's a good camera for their approach to T2
https://i.imgur.com/4ewK30P.gif
Here's a 'fixed camera' composite image for their respective lines made several frames taken from the above and distorted so that the lines of the track and surroundings aligned.
https://i.imgur.com/ualW5GG.gif

What would be the additional space Lewis should have given?
If you'd move his car a tyre's width to the left, would there be contact eventually?
How far would he have to move away from the apex and importantly the ideal line (seen taken by George ahead) to accomodate Max?

Compare the speed and approach vector of Max vs. Lewis to Pierre vs. MIck - they are both the attacking driver, listen to the revs, who accelerates for how long, who brakes/lifts when.
Pierre has a significantly better angle/line for the corner he lifts earlier and coasts through most of it and yet they almost have contact and he gets carried to the middle of the track at the very least before he gets on throttle in a much lighter car (lap 7 vs. 66). (btw this situation arguably shows what the minimum required space would/should be)

Imho the only way there is no contact is if Lewis actively avoids it, which would be jumping out of the way of a late lunge, but that's not how close racing is supposed to work, Max should have slowed down way more than Lewis because he should be capable of hugging the inside line and then the contact would not have been front wheel to front wheel, probably closer to HAM/ALO in Spa and then he wouldn't have been the one at fault.

With all the above i'd say that there would have been contact anyways, of course Lewis should/could have given a bit more space but he was the variable in this, Max was the constant that would have lead to contact, so in that regard the decision is at least comprehensible, laying a bit more blame in Max' basket and giving him the lowest possible penalty.

Excellent overview and the best synopsis. Thank you. I was also fine with the stewards verdict. You’re actually the first to openly say that HAM could/should have given a bit more room regardless. The outcome may well still have been the same, but would have completely absolved him from any “blame” imho

[Mosin123]

I really suggest people who talk about overspeed, out of control, to look at the video again. There was no moment at all when Verstappen was not in control or had too much speed.

He was not driving in a safe and controlled manor with in the rules eg he wouldnt have stayed on track even if LH had gave him the whole track........ so yes he was technically speaking uncontrolled eg reckless, he admits as much after the race in his interview....



You can clearly see before he ran out of space he isnt likely to make the corner going faster than the Mercs who had been faster through them two corners all weekend on the tight angle he waas at.. its nearly a full 90 degree turn he is trying to make. you expecting him to hand brake it if LH is 2 yards further wide? He tried to divebomb and got it wrong, it was uncontrolled and was nbever going to pay off for Max, LH although could have should have would have given a few extra yards, Max would still have likely hit the side of him / forced LH off track.

They ruled “Verstappen attempted to pass Hamilton on the outside of turn one by braking very late. He did not complete the pass in turn one and his excess speed compromised his entry into turn two, at which point he made contact with Hamilton.

“While the stewards recognise that Hamilton could possibly have given a little more room at the apex of turn two, the stewards determined that Verstappen was predominantly at fault.”

" “In order for a car being overtaken to be required to give sufficient room to an overtaking car, the overtaking car needs to have a significant portion of the car alongside the car being overtaken and the overtaking manoeuvre must be done in a safe and controlled manner, while enabling the car to clearly remain within the limits of the track.
“When considering what is a ‘significant portion’, for an overtaking on the outside of a corner, among the various factors that will be looked at by the stewards when exercising their discretion, the stewards will consider if the overtaking car is ahead of the other car from the apex of the corner. The car being overtaken must be capable of making the corner while remaining within the limits of the track.”

They both caused it, ofc, But Max had already lost the battle, it was a red mist moment because HE didnt want to back down like LH has done hundreds of times these last few years. He admits it after the race... So he chose to crash, so given his admission, it was completely his fault. You cant avoid a crash with some one who has already decide they are going to crash into you, by giving them a yard more space when he was going to fast at a bad angle to even make the corner ( As Sky said, As Button said, And as the stewards said )... the picture i posted above shows how badly compromised his t2 line is.......

Only thing Lewis could have done to avoid it is another trip to Puru like last year

[Vanja #66]

Here's a 'fixed camera' composite image for their respective lines made several frames taken from the above and distorted so that the lines of the track and surroundings aligned.
https://i.imgur.com/ualW5GG.gif

I appreciate this post, especially the gifs. One thing that becomes even more evident when looking at it is how tight a line Hamilton took on T2 entry, much tighter than optimal/usual, as mendis was pointing out. Shows that he was fully determined to close the door, while not being fully ahead of Max.

When you compared their clash with Mick and Gasly, you see indeed how better on entry Gasly (attacker) was compared to Max, meaning Mick (defender) was almost two car widths wider on entry compared to Hamilton.

As I said earlier, Max had every right to take his line in his maneuver and Hamilton simply didn't leave the room. And, evidently, never intended to.

[Gooch]

Looking at the telemetry on F1-tempo, I see why they gave a penalty.

Both Hamilton and Verstappen rocketed through T1 (Hamilton via apex speed, Verstappen under braking) and were quicker to T2 than at any other point in the race, Hamilton 0.11s faster and Verstappen 0.19s faster than their best laps despite the SC restart!!!

Then they both pile into T2. Hamilton is going a bit quicker than his average lap but it is far from the quickest he will run through there during the day. On a better line he'll actually beat his on each of the next 4 laps and annihilate it at the end of the race. Meanwhile Verstappen is 3-6 kph faster than the next time he runs through there on the soft tire (20 laps less fuel) and actually 2 kph faster at that point than he will be on his fastest lap, all while on that incredibly tight line. I'm not sure how one can expect to him to make the corner.

To me, it makes sense to think that getting into that gap required driving is such a manner that he would not complete the corner.

[DDopey]

Max has a similar rotation to Lewis several frames (~5m?) back when the contact occurs, he's not remotely aiming towards the ideal line or the apex of T3.

Good analysis and some good points, but I do not agree with your conclusion. I think the part you are not looking at, especially in the above statement. The line directly after that corner, it is towards to inside of T3 which is in an outward direction directly after T2. So it is an unfavorable line to cling to the apex n T2, you just want to touch it to have straight line as possible from after T1 to T3.

[Tvetovnato]

Here's a 'fixed camera' composite image for their respective lines made several frames taken from the above and distorted so that the lines of the track and surroundings aligned.
https://i.imgur.com/ualW5GG.gif

I appreciate this post, especially the gifs. One thing that becomes even more evident when looking at it is how tight a line Hamilton took on T2 entry, much tighter than optimal/usual, as mendis was pointing out. Shows that he was fully determined to close the door, while not being fully ahead of Max.

When you compared their clash with Mick and Gasly, you see indeed how better on entry Gasly (attacker) was compared to Max, meaning Mick (defender) was almost two car widths wider on entry compared to Hamilton.

As I said earlier, Max had every right to take his line in his maneuver and Hamilton simply didn't leave the room. And, evidently, never intended to.

And yet every time Max does these things, HE gets penalized, not Lewis. Don’t you find that quite odd if Hamilton is the culprit? Max even admitted to crashing into Lewis intentionally after the race, as childish as he is.

Next year, if the Merc is up there, this will 100 % happen again if Lewis doesn’t bail him out like he did on many occasions during ’21. And again, Verstappen will be penalized, not Lewis, because Max does not understand how to handle these situations and what’s allowed or not. The only hope is that he will ruin his own race solely, and not bring anyone else with him.

[Mosin123]

Here's a 'fixed camera' composite image for their respective lines made several frames taken from the above and distorted so that the lines of the track and surroundings aligned.
https://i.imgur.com/ualW5GG.gif

I appreciate this post, especially the gifs. One thing that becomes even more evident when looking at it is how tight a line Hamilton took on T2 entry, much tighter than optimal/usual, as mendis was pointing out. Shows that he was fully determined to close the door, while not being fully ahead of Max.

When you compared their clash with Mick and Gasly, you see indeed how better on entry Gasly (attacker) was compared to Max, meaning Mick (defender) was almost two car widths wider on entry compared to Hamilton.

As I said earlier, Max had every right to take his line in his maneuver and Hamilton simply didn't leave the room. And, evidently, never intended to.

So how much more space does he need to leave? If he moves over a full yard, max doesnt touch the apex and still hits him, if he moves over two full yards, LH is still on a collision course with max, he moves over any more he doesnt make the corner him self but will avoid max.. Your reasoning has no logic.. You are saying every one just has to move when max divebombs u and clapp him past?. That isnt racing and not a sport i would even entertain to watch. Might as well go to the local banger races...

[DChemTech]

One thing i struggle to understand is...

For me, Max being able to provide space at exit is just as important as Lewis having to provide space at entry. If Max failed to provide space at exit and compromised Hamilton, that's a clear blame on and penalty for Max. The problem is that we never know if he would have been able to provide space at exit with the speed he had, because there was a collision due to there being insufficient space at entry. And that, in my view, was not Max' mistake, yet he is penalized for it (or for hypothetically not being able to provide space at exit due to too high speed). That's where I disagree with the verdict.

[Mosin123]

One thing i struggle to understand is...

For me, Max being able to provide space at exit is just as important as Lewis having to provide space at entry. If Max failed to provide space at exit and compromised Hamilton, that's a clear blame on and penalty for Max. The problem is that we never know if he would have been able to provide space at exit with the speed he had, because there was a collision due to there being insufficient space at entry. And that, in my view, was not Max' mistake, yet he is penalized for it (or for hypothetically not being able to provide space at exit due to too high speed). That's where I disagree with the verdict.

Maxs angle of approach means he was always going to cross lh line and always force lh off and most likely not make the corner him self, lh has alrdy picked his line before max has even finshed turning in from t1... Can see the gap dissappearig but decides to try another dive bomb...

No, max is fault for no ceeding, or in his words, he decided to just crash. As max said him self... The gap, as noted by the stewards although look at, was not the primary reason the crash happened, if lh moves over and gives enough space, he would still have made contact, lh qvoids it and goes off track then max has just done an illigal over take, so i really dont understand max fans reasoning here, max screwed up seen red and didnt engage his brain

[DChemTech]

One thing i struggle to understand is...

For me, Max being able to provide space at exit is just as important as Lewis having to provide space at entry. If Max failed to provide space at exit and compromised Hamilton, that's a clear blame on and penalty for Max. The problem is that we never know if he would have been able to provide space at exit with the speed he had, because there was a collision due to there being insufficient space at entry. And that, in my view, was not Max' mistake, yet he is penalized for it (or for hypothetically not being able to provide space at exit due to too high speed). That's where I disagree with the verdict.

Maxs angle of approach means he was always going to cross lh line and always force lh off and most likely not make the corner him self, lh has alrdy picked his line before max has even finshed turning in from t1... Can see the gap dissappearig but decides to try another dive bomb...

No, max is fault for no ceeding, or in his words, he decided to just crash. As max said him self... The gap, as noted by the stewards although look at, was not the primary reason the crash happened, if lh moves over and gives enough space, he would still have made contact, lh qvoids it and goes off track then max has just done an illigal over take, so i really dont understand max fans reasoning here, max screwed up seen red and didnt engage his brain

And as others have noted, including more neutral observers, it is not clear that Max would not have made the corner, and I really do not see the reasoning of some here that he clearly would not have made it.

All I observe is that if LH would have left sufficient room and they went off, the blame would have been absolutely clear, while now, it is not.

[Tvetovnato]

No matter how hard one tries, it’s impossible to explain to Max fanbase what is wrong with this type of move Somewhere you just have to get to terms with the fact that Max continues to rack up penalties for these moves, and that there is a clear reason for it.