2022 São Paulo Grand Prix - Interlagos, Nov 11 - 13

[jknights]

I think people are rightly trying to rationalise the T2 incident between VER and HAM.
However we all or most know that these two drivers are probably the best two drivers on the grid. The old v young lions will always want to lock horns to gain supremacy.
VER is headstrong and at times stupid just like HAM was 10-12 years ago.
We dont need to be tribal to see the issue.
The issue is the huge downforce generated that allows high speed cornering that is F1. Remove aerodynamic aids such as convoluted bottom tray and wings and problem is solved.
If you brake late you go straight on! Less fun to watch but we get rid of the idiot braking concept!

[PlatinumZealot]

I don't understand why FIA letting this things happening constantly. Put up the ruling that any driver who has anyone beside him by a wheel or more, he must give him space. Let them to do late braking or anything and penalize only the forcing the other driver off track.
Imo this is more simple and the drivers will learn to respect each other and give them space.

That's not racing. That rule only applies in a high speed braking zone and it should stay there.

It's also totally different for running other driver off the track when the driver was always there and fully along side.

A wheel or more will never work. That's even worse that the old rule that says it must be front wheel to side pod which is safer. Front wheel to rear wheel does not deserve any right to be given space. The attacker should back off at that point.

[dans79]

I don't understand why FIA letting this things happening constantly. Put up the ruling that any driver who has anyone beside him by a wheel or more, he must give him space. Let them to do late braking or anything and penalize only the forcing the other driver off track.
Imo this is more simple and the drivers will learn to respect each other and give them space.

This isn't go-karting, all a rule like thats would do is encourage out of control late braking dive-bombs and accidents. I'm sure Liberty and the DTS fanbase would love that, but it isn't racing!

[the poster below]

Just out of curiosity: I see Verstappen's overtake attempt in turn 2 as a classic driving into a 'disappearing wedge' (Brundle's term for it I think). When is the last time that Verstappen attempted and then backed out of such a move? I am not sure how to go about searching for this sort of thing.... But my hypothesis is that I'm not entirely sure he has ever aborted that type of overtake (in f1 anyway) once started (i.e. he may not have gone for it in the first place on various occasions, but I think once started he goes in full blooded). Hamilton has certainly botched that type of overtake before, e.g. on Albon in Brazil, although from memory I think he did try to bail out? Similar again in Silverstone 2021 (from my perspective anyway). So, has Verstappen gone for the disappearing wedge overtake in an F1 race and also tried to back out of it to avoid contact?

[mendis]

A wheel or more will never work. That's even worse that the old rule that says it must be front wheel to side pod which is safer. Front wheel to rear wheel does not deserve any right to be given space. The attacker should back off at that point.

So you agree Silverstone 2021 was entirely Lewis' fault.

[Justthatek]

A wheel or more will never work. That's even worse that the old rule that says it must be front wheel to side pod which is safer. Front wheel to rear wheel does not deserve any right to be given space. The attacker should back off at that point.

So you agree Silverstone 2021 was entirely Lewis' fault.

No.

[Vanja #66]

I think the correct calculation is 152/146^2, which yields 8% more centripetal acceleration. I think that probably would be a challenge to hold on a tighter line, which increases the acceleration.

Oops, right... That's on me, I was doing some other calcs in parallel and made a boo-boo here. You and Gooch pushed me to go a step further and check if I'm going crazy just to be sure...

It's not just about speed. Centrifugal force is also dependent on radius of the corner which will always be diminished when you are running the inside.

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Thanks again, I really appreciate this kind of analysis but I will have to disagree once again. From google maps I got R55.7 for normal line and R55.2 for a line that could keep Max right on the edge of the track. Let's make them R56 and R55 just in case. Anyone can feel free to check the math, chosen lines and arcs drawn. I've left measurements from G-maps for length reference.



Case 1 - Max, lap 7, 800kg car, 80kg driver+seat, 90kg fuel, 146kmh, R55 - F_cf=28,928N
Case 2 - Hamilton, lap 63, 800kg car, 80kg driver+seat, 11kg fuel, 153kmh, R56 - F_cf=28,738N (-0.65%)

I'd say this hypothetical line for Max would certainly be far from undoable. And that's without taking into account he could brake a bit more if he wanted to, to make sure he would keep it on track. In any case, his T3 entry would be compromised as hell and he'd be a sitting duck for Perez, let alone Hamilton. Another reason Hamilton should have been smarter with his corner entry and let Max overshoot racing line...

[GrizzleBoy]

I said you were a numbers man in the FIA thread Vanja, and im glad to see you using them now to discuss this topic!

I like how your own analysis pretty much confirms graphically what people have been saying about Max carrying overspeed through the apex in the wrong direction (across the racing line as opposed to parallel) so he can actually slow down and rotate the car at or past the edge of the track.

People have been fighting back against Maxs attempt being called a divebomb, but the line created from your own analysis is a textbook divebomb line.

It also validates Karun Chandhoks slow motion analysis after the race that Maxs trajectory going into the corner was off the track edge.

It also validates his and many other people's view that Hamilton leaving a cars width at the apex would have allowed Max to stay alongside him as a red herring argument because no matter where Lewis' Line goes through that corner, Maxs line from your own interpretation always crosses over Lewis' at some point. Max was always heading toward the edge of the track whether Lewis left him a cars width or not and Max had no intention (or capability)of being a cars width away from the apex once they'd past it anyway.

Your hypothetical line for Max also however suggests normal driving too, not keeping it pegged to the very last minute possible to allow him to stay as close to being at Hamiltons right side at all times to cut off the track on exit, and we all know Max is more than happy to go to the extreme to do that.

[henry]

I think the correct calculation is 152/146^2, which yields 8% more centripetal acceleration. I think that probably would be a challenge to hold on a tighter line, which increases the acceleration.

Oops, right... That's on me, I was doing some other calcs in parallel and made a boo-boo here. You and Gooch pushed me to go a step further and check if I'm going crazy just to be sure...

It's not just about speed. Centrifugal force is also dependent on radius of the corner which will always be diminished when you are running the inside.

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https://i.ibb.co/h2WqkBY/radius.png

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https://i.ibb.co/Kj8K9CB/radius.png

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Thanks again, I really appreciate this kind of analysis but I will have to disagree once again. From google maps I got R55.7 for normal line and R55.2 for a line that could keep Max right on the edge of the track. Let's make them R56 and R55 just in case. Anyone can feel free to check the math, chosen lines and arcs drawn. I've left measurements from G-maps for length reference.

https://i.ibb.co/hgTmYxW/Untitled.jpg

Case 1 - Max, lap 7, 800kg car, 80kg driver+seat, 90kg fuel, 146kmh, R55 - F_cf=28,928N
Case 2 - Hamilton, lap 63, 800kg car, 80kg driver+seat, 11kg fuel, 153kmh, R56 - F_cf=28,738N (-0.65%)

I'd say this hypothetical line for Max would certainly be far from undoable. And that's without taking into account he could brake a bit more if he wanted to, to make sure he would keep it on track. In any case, his T3 entry would be compromised as hell and he'd be a sitting duck for Perez, let alone Hamilton. Another reason Hamilton should have been smarter with his corner entry and let Max overshoot racing line...

Your hypothetical line assumes there is nothing in the way to prevent it being used. To do so the Red Bull would need to be ahead at the apex, which apex might come in to play but I don’t think so from calcs below.

At the point of collision the Red Bull is at least 2 metres short of being level. If we assume at that point it is going 6kph faster than the Mercedes, 1.6m/s. Let’s call it 2. To cover the 2m will take 1 second. If it’s doing 152kph, 43m/s, then we need 43 m of track to have the cars level. From your scale lines that’s well past the apexes and half way across the track.

So there would be no right claim the ability to run the line you suggest. In fact they would have collided before then even if given a metre or so more room. So the radius needed to be negotiated is inside the line being taken by the Mercedes.

[Vanja #66]

I like how your own analysis pretty much confirms graphically what people have been saying about Max carrying overspeed through the apex in the wrong direction (across the racing line) so he can actually slow down and rotate the car at or past the edge of the track.

It validates Karun Chandhoks slow motion analysis that Maxs trajectory going into the corner was off the track edge.

This line allows him to stay on the edge, not go over it like he did after being hit. He's entitled to that line. I also showed he didn't carry too much speed. And he would have also had a chance to brake if he wanted to. Just like any other driver on track, he's entitled to that kind of line and driving.

As well as his and many other people's view that Hamilton leaving a cars width at the apex would have allowed Max to stay alongside him as a red herring argument because no matter where Lewis' Line goes through that corner, Maxs line from your own interpretation always crosses over Lewis' at some point.

You mean Hamilton would get another taste of his own "hard-racing" medicine and get pushed to the edge of the track? What's the problem with that? Again, we don't know what would have happened after T2 apex, since Max got hit and then they bot went straight out, so there is no evidence that Hamilton would be pushed out because it didn't happen.

So there would be no right claim the ability to run the line you suggest. In fact they would have collided before then even if given a metre or so more room. So the radius needed to be negotiated is inside the line being taken by the Mercedes.

Why not? This kind of line is not common, but not illegal in any way. Hamilton did stuff like this to others a lot.

Btw, not sure if you understand, but I was comparing Max' line and racing line, not Hamilton's. Hamilton also took a tighter line for T2, I guess to prepare his position for what would eventually happen.

[Mosin123]

I like how your own analysis pretty much confirms graphically what people have been saying about Max carrying overspeed through the apex in the wrong direction (across the racing line) so he can actually slow down and rotate the car at or past the edge of the track.

It validates Karun Chandhoks slow motion analysis that Maxs trajectory going into the corner was off the track edge.

This line allows him to stay on the edge, not go over it like he did after being hit. He's entitled to that line. I also showed he didn't carry too much speed. And he would have also had a chance to brake if he wanted to. Just like any other driver on track, he's entitled to that kind of line and driving.

As well as his and many other people's view that Hamilton leaving a cars width at the apex would have allowed Max to stay alongside him as a red herring argument because no matter where Lewis' Line goes through that corner, Maxs line from your own interpretation always crosses over Lewis' at some point.

You mean Hamilton would get another taste of his own "hard-racing" medicine and get pushed to the edge of the track? What's the problem with that? Again, we don't know what would have happened after T2 apex, since Max got hit and then they bot went straight out, so there is no evidence that Hamilton would be pushed out because it didn't happen.

So there would be no right claim the ability to run the line you suggest. In fact they would have collided before then even if given a metre or so more room. So the radius needed to be negotiated is inside the line being taken by the Mercedes.

Why not? This kind of line is not common, but not illegal in any way. Hamilton did stuff like this to others a lot.

Btw, not sure if you understand, but I was comparing Max' line and racing line, not Hamilton's. Hamilton also took a tighter line for T2, I guess to prepare his position for what would eventually happen.

your posts shows your wrong. you want LH to completely change line so your wonderboy max can take a free overtake whilst on a completely stupid line that would ( as it did ) ruin his run up to t3 and t4.

If as you said max goes right to the egde. your forgetting an important rule. the overtaking car ( Which max was being behind ) needs to leave space for the car being over taken to STAY ON TRACK. so keep proving your Max bias.

Least i admit i favour Ferrari, and will own up when obviously wrong, but this is just silly. LH needs to move 500000000000 yards wide Because Max went for a gap and line that was impossible against a car Max already said was UNBEATABLE in a crash Max said he wanted to happen because HE WANTED TO RUIN LHs RACE but you just keep trying to find a pixle to shift blame to hamilton....... Its stupid, weather or not LH leave a cars width Max crashes INTO LH, Reason why Max is called crashtappen.

[GrizzleBoy]

I like how your own analysis pretty much confirms graphically what people have been saying about Max carrying overspeed through the apex in the wrong direction (across the racing line) so he can actually slow down and rotate the car at or past the edge of the track.

It validates Karun Chandhoks slow motion analysis that Maxs trajectory going into the corner was off the track edge.

This line allows him to stay on the edge, not go over it like he did after being hit. He's entitled to that line. I also showed he didn't carry too much speed. And he would have also had a chance to brake if he wanted to. Just like any other driver on track, he's entitled to that kind of line and driving.

As well as his and many other people's view that Hamilton leaving a cars width at the apex would have allowed Max to stay alongside him as a red herring argument because no matter where Lewis' Line goes through that corner, Maxs line from your own interpretation always crosses over Lewis' at some point.

You mean Hamilton would get another taste of his own "hard-racing" medicine and get pushed to the edge of the track? What's the problem with that? Again, we don't know what would have happened after T2 apex, since Max got hit and then they bot went straight out, so there is no evidence that Hamilton would be pushed out because it didn't happen.

So there would be no right claim the ability to run the line you suggest. In fact they would have collided before then even if given a metre or so more room. So the radius needed to be negotiated is inside the line being taken by the Mercedes.

Why not? This kind of line is not common, but not illegal in any way. Hamilton did stuff like this to others a lot.

Btw, not sure if you understand, but I was comparing Max' line and racing line, not Hamilton's. Hamilton also took a tighter line for T2, I guess to prepare his position for what would eventually happen.

1.
I said his trajectory at the specific point, not his hypothetical line. The divebomb requires you not slow down at normal places on track because you're essentially using an imaginary apex of the corner to the edge of the other side of the track.

2.
Of course Max could've braked. It's kind of the whole point. He didnt though. The reason he didn't was because he was attempting a divebomb and he needed to match or increase speed relative to Hamilton to keep achieve it.

3.
I'm glad we can now agree Max was making a divebomb attempt with that line on entry, at that speed.

4.
I like how your response to the "more space would've allowed them both through the corner" analysis being debunked even partly by your own hypothetical line showing Max doing just as much door closing as Hamilton (and we know he would have) is a "so what, Lewis did it X,y,z times before" lol. So closing the door is just hard racing, except when it isnt. But only when it is. Except when it isnt. But only if in the past abcdefg


Like I said mate, you're a numbers man, and the numbers have by your own analysis not supported the narrative against Maxs penalty and basically supported everyone you've been disagreeing with including the stewards you've been railing against in the FIA thread

Even the kimi vs scheme vid you keep commenting on is now moot considering you've been focusing on how schumi gave kimi space on the inside, but ignoring the fact that kimi wasn't trying to divebomb through the corner amd actually stuck to the inside line. Something you've already conceded Max was not doing from your own analysis.

[Vanja #66]

you want LH to completely change line so your wonderboy max can take a free overtake whilst on a completely stupid line that would ( as it did ) ruin his run up to t3 and t4.

Not what I want, it's what rules require Hamilton to do. Both attacker and defender are required to leave space on track for the other car. Max was besides all the times (whatever way you look at him, as attacking or defending driver), so he was entitled to more space in T2 apex whatever his line was.

And exactly this is why Hamilton should have been smarter on his T2 approach. Let Max overshoot, switch back and drive away. Leclerc did this to Max in Bahrain beautifully.

Again, please leave the personal comments out, you're completely wrong in any case as I've told you before, but you don't seem to respect that.

I like how your response to the "more space would've allowed them both through the corner" analysis being debunked even partly by your own hypothetical line showing Max doing just as much door closing as Hamilton (and we know he would have) is a "so what, Lewis did it X,y,z times before" lol. So closing the door is just hard racing, except when it isnt. But only when it is. Except when it isnt. But only if in the past abcdefg

Please don't twist my words. I never described Max' move as divebomb or not a divebomb. I don't care what it was, I'm not his fan. I've shown stewards ruling was baseless and amateurish since Max wouldn't have left the track after T2 apex. That's it. Feel free to dispute those numbers, do your own analysis, whatever you feel like

If Lewis left more room he would have been pushed wide and off line after T2 apex, Max had every right to do that. Hamilton did it loads of times in his racing career. Both he and Max knew this would happen, that's exactly the point of Max' move. But Hamilton made a bad decision to go for a collision which likely cost him a win. He should have been smarter and do what Leclerc did in Bahrain.

[GrizzleBoy]

No driver has the right to drive on collision courses with the car in front of them, what a preposterous thing for you to say lmao.

Like i said mate, you were fawning over the schumi vs kimi Brazil video in this and other threads in an attempt to talk about how Lewis leaving space would've resulted in respectable racing, but now that your own numbers show Max likely running Lewis off the road if they stayed side by side, your attitude has shifted to "so what, Max is entitled to close the door on Lewis!"

Are you coming, or going?

[chrisc90]

Exactly same could be said from Lewis at silverstone when he took max out. Positions just swapped.