2022 São Paulo Grand Prix - Interlagos, Nov 11 - 13

[Vanja #66]

No driver has the right to drive on collision courses with the car in front of them, what a preposterous thing for you to say lmao.

Exactly, when a car is in front or on your side, you can't drive into it. Glad we agree Hamilton had no right to turn into Max.

Like i said mate, you were fawning over the schumi vs kimi Brazil video in this and other threads in an attempt to talk about how Lewis leaving space would've resulted in respectable racing, but now that your own numbers show Max likely running Lewis off the road if they stayed side by side, your attitude has shifted to "so what, Max is entitled to close the door on Lewis!"

Are you coming, or going?

I really don't mind so many personal comments and constant word twisting, but it really devalues the rest of the post every time

[Mosin123]

you want LH to completely change line so your wonderboy max can take a free overtake whilst on a completely stupid line that would ( as it did ) ruin his run up to t3 and t4.

Not what I want, it's what rules require Hamilton to do. Both attacker and defender are required to leave space on track for the other car. Max was besides all the times (whatever way you look at him, as attacking or defending driver), so he was entitled to more space in T2 apex whatever his line was.

And exactly this is why Hamilton should have been smarter on his T2 approach. Let Max overshoot, switch back and drive away. Leclerc did this to Max in Bahrain beautifully.

Again, please leave the personal comments out, you're completely wrong in any case as I've told you before, but you don't seem to respect that.

I like how your response to the "more space would've allowed them both through the corner" analysis being debunked even partly by your own hypothetical line showing Max doing just as much door closing as Hamilton (and we know he would have) is a "so what, Lewis did it X,y,z times before" lol. So closing the door is just hard racing, except when it isnt. But only when it is. Except when it isnt. But only if in the past abcdefg

Please don't twist my words. I never described Max' move as divebomb or not a divebomb. I don't care what it was, I'm not his fan. I've shown stewards ruling was baseless and amateurish since Max wouldn't have left the track after T2 apex. That's it. Feel free to dispute those numbers, do your own analysis, whatever you feel like

If Lewis left more room he would have been pushed wide and off line after T2 apex, Max had every right to do that. Hamilton did it loads of times in his racing career. Both he and Max knew this would happen, that's exactly the point of Max' move. But Hamilton made a bad decision to go for a collision which likely cost him a win. He should have been smarter and do what Leclerc did in Bahrain.

Not at all, you max fans claim LH needs to not leave 1 cars width, but LEAVE the god dam track to AVOID MAX htting him, Doesnt matter if LH left a cars width or not, the line wasnt avalible to Max END OF, He was always going to hit LH if LH didnt take avoiding action, a bit like most races last year Lewis had to BAIL out because of Crashtappen.

[rijtuig]

Facts. When HAM started to make his comeback in the second half of the 21 season, he had to avoid and back off quite often to not get in a collision with Max.

[chrisc90]

Not at all, you max fans claim LH needs to not leave 1 cars width, but LEAVE the god dam track to AVOID MAX htting him, Doesnt matter if LH left a cars width or not, the line wasnt avalible to Max END OF, He was always going to hit LH if LH didnt take avoiding action, a bit like most races last year Lewis had to BAIL out because of Crashtappen.

The maturity of your post shines through.

[GrizzleBoy]

No driver has the right to drive on collision courses with the car in front of them, what a preposterous thing for you to say lmao.

Exactly, when a car is in front or on your side, you can't drive into it. Glad we agree Hamilton had no right to turn into Max.

Like i said mate, you were fawning over the schumi vs kimi Brazil video in this and other threads in an attempt to talk about how Lewis leaving space would've resulted in respectable racing, but now that your own numbers show Max likely running Lewis off the road if they stayed side by side, your attitude has shifted to "so what, Max is entitled to close the door on Lewis!"

Are you coming, or going?

I really don't mind so many personal comments and constant word twisting, but it really devalues the rest of the post every time

So do ad hominems?

You were free to discuss whether you were or were not using schumi vs kimi videos from Brazil 2012 at that same corner to romanticise respectful driving of a "7x wdc in a merc" leaving space, while simultaneously giving a "so what? He's entitled to do that" attitude when your own graphical analysis showed Max not exactly gearing up to leave racing room either had his move been successful?

And the first part of your post is you literally twisting my post just to have a point to make, while complaining about me twisting words....

Like I said, it's difficult to tell whether you're coming or going because you're contradicting yourself with your own arguments/drawings?

[Mosin123]

Not at all, you max fans claim LH needs to not leave 1 cars width, but LEAVE the god dam track to AVOID MAX htting him, Doesnt matter if LH left a cars width or not, the line wasnt avalible to Max END OF, He was always going to hit LH if LH didnt take avoiding action, a bit like most races last year Lewis had to BAIL out because of Crashtappen.

The maturity of your post shines through.

At least given your reasoning, we can say at silverstone Max is wrong for not moving out of Lewis on his dive bomb up the inside at Copse........

I blamed Lewis for that, but guess I’ll have to change my opinion and agree, when diving up the inside, the person in front on the more optimal racing line, has to leave the track, give up position and wave the reckless driver through..

Mod edit
some very poor, personal points have been removed

[Gooch]

Case 1 - Max, lap 7, 800kg car, 80kg driver+seat, 90kg fuel, 146kmh, R55 - F_cf=28,928N
Case 2 - Hamilton, lap 63, 800kg car, 80kg driver+seat, 11kg fuel, 153kmh, R56 - F_cf=28,738N (-0.65%)

I'd say this hypothetical line for Max would certainly be far from undoable. And that's without taking into account he could brake a bit more if he wanted to, to make sure he would keep it on track. In any case, his T3 entry would be compromised as hell and he'd be a sitting duck for Perez, let alone Hamilton. Another reason Hamilton should have been smarter with his corner entry and let Max overshoot racing line...

I appreciate your analysis, the only thing I would disagree with is your choice of line for Case 1. As shown in the gifs RZS10 posted a couple pages ago, Max is damn near parallel with the edge of the track when he turns into T2 (He’s actually still turning left in the 2nd gif at the start of the T2 kerb). I imagine this will tighten up the line he has to take significantly if he wants to stay on the track through the exit. 100% fair to assume he would try to straddle the line though because I absolutely think that was the plan.

[Vanja #66]

I appreciate your analysis, the only thing I would disagree with is your choice of line for Case 1. As shown in the gifs RZS10 posted a couple pages ago, Max is damn near parallel with the edge of the track when he turns into T2 (He’s actually still turning left in the 2nd gif at the start of the T2 kerb). I imagine this will tighten up the line he has to take significantly if he wants to stay on the track through the exit. 100% fair to assume he would try to straddle the line though because I absolutely think that was the plan.

I was looking at those gifs and videos on YT to approximate the line, so that's just my view. This is the best approximation I can produce, the line has a varying radius, apex speed is just the speed in one point, etc... I don't think his hypothetical line would have been tighter than R50, there's just no evidence for that. Still leaves him room to correct, tap the brakes if needed and stay on the outside curb within track limits...

So do ad hominems?

Indeed. Didn't you reply to me first, though?

And the first part of your post is you literally twisting my post just to have a point to make, while complaining about me twisting words....

It's idiotic isn't it? Even when the point is correct on its own.

[Tvetovnato]

I appreciate your analysis, the only thing I would disagree with is your choice of line for Case 1. As shown in the gifs RZS10 posted a couple pages ago, Max is damn near parallel with the edge of the track when he turns into T2 (He’s actually still turning left in the 2nd gif at the start of the T2 kerb). I imagine this will tighten up the line he has to take significantly if he wants to stay on the track through the exit. 100% fair to assume he would try to straddle the line though because I absolutely think that was the plan.

I was looking at those gifs and videos on YT to approximate the line, so that's just my view. This is the best approximation I can produce, the line has a varying radius, apex speed is just the speed in one point, etc... I don't think his hypothetical line would have been tighter than R50, there's just no evidence for that. Still leaves him room to correct, tap the brakes if needed and stay on the outside curb within track limits...

So do ad hominems?

Indeed. Didn't you reply to me first, though?

And the first part of your post is you literally twisting my post just to have a point to make, while complaining about me twisting words....

It's idiotic isn't it? Even when the point is correct on its own.

But if Max only stays on track by being on the outside kerb within the track limits, where does it leave Lewis to go? He is required to be given space at that point on track. So if he is required to leave the track, the move is still illegal (again).

[RZS10]

Since the incident which shall not be named is being brought up repeatedly, here's a reminder what the decision doc said, only edited to fit this situation, may the mods forgive me :

The Stewards reviewed video [...] evidence . Cars 1 and 44 entered turn 2 with Car 44 in the lead and Car 1 slightly behind and on the inside. Car 1 was on a line that [would] not reach the apex of the corner, [...] When Car 44 turned into the corner, Car 1 did not avoid contact and the left front of Car [1] contacted the right front of Car 44. Car 1 is judged predominantly at fault.

There's obviously massive key differences which probably should not be discussed for the sake of this thread DO NOT CLICK, but the key point is that the stewards expect the car behind to make the inside line, the visual and mathematical analysis here shows that it's unlikely Max could have done that.

[Gooch]

I was looking at those gifs and videos on YT to approximate the line, so that's just my view. This is the best approximation I can produce, the line has a varying radius, apex speed is just the speed in one point, etc... I don't think his hypothetical line would have been tighter than R50, there's just no evidence for that. Still leaves him room to correct, tap the brakes if needed and stay on the outside curb within track limits...

I drew below based on the following assumptions:
1. The center of the car is 1m from the inner edge of the white line at the 3rd white block of kerb on the right. The right rear appears to actually touch the white line in the gif but this is close enough.
2. The center of the car is almost exactly over and tangent to the seam between the white line and kerb prior to contact which occurs before the perpendicular white line, also as shown in the gif.
3. The centerline of the car will be 1m from the edge of the track on corner exit, on the exact edge of track limits.
4. The car will be heading in a direction parallel to the edge of the track by the time it reaches the right side of the image in Turn 3.
5. 3 degree entry angle. Due to how this sketch is constrained by the above criteria, only entry angles in the 2.X-5.X degree range are possible. To meet those criteria a higher entry angle actually lead to a smaller radius (turn in occurs unrealistically late) so I went with 3 degrees.

These criteria put the 'turn in' just after the 6th white block of the right kerb. I think this is a fine approximation because, as shown in the onboard, Max starts to turn right around the 2nd-3rd block and then adds a significant amount of angle around the 8th-9th block just prior to contact.

This radius given is R50.74 which is still a 9% increase in force from Hamilton's fastest lap. I would still consider this a significant increase in force, especially when you consider that Max's line demanded he run the right side on top of the inside kerb which would have unsettled the car. To make R55 work in this scenario he has to leave the track by 3-4m which would be pretty similar to where he actually ended up after the accident, just past the T3 kerb. That would make me think the collision didn't actually alter his line all that much.

[Vanja #66]

But if Max only stays on track by being on the outside kerb within the track limits, where does it leave Lewis to go? He is required to be given space at that point on track. So if he is required to leave the track, the move is still illegal (again).

Well we don't know what would happen because of the collision obviously. I think Max would likely have pushed Hamilton out, given their previous encounters, but he might have made an effort to slow down and leave enough space for Hamilton. We don't know. Hypothetical scenarios can't be the basis for stewards, but they sure made an arbitrary decision that Max basically wasn't entitled to track position being "too fast"

This gives a R50.74 which is still a 9% increase in force from Hamilton's fastest lap. I would still consider this a significant increase in force, especially when you consider that Max's line demanded he run the right side on top of the inside kerb which would have unsettled the car. To make R55 work in this scenario he has to leave the track by 3-4m which would be pretty similar to where he actually ended up after the accident, just past the T3 kerb. That would make me think the collision didn't actually alter his line all that much.

Wow, great effort! Thanks for sharing! I still think his line wasn't that tight, but we are almost in agreement. 9% high F_cf is considerable, but again it still depends on actual entry line and resulting radii, would he have braked, would he only get off-throttle, etc...

Again, I'm unhappy with arbitrarily made steward's decision and resulting penalty. Norris made and error over the curb, understeered into Leclerc and got the same penalty, while being given ample space and being clearly slower.

As far as this incident goes, it's a racing incident of two hot heads in my view. Someone would assign more blame to Max, someone more to Hamilton, but FIA inconsistency with penalties is appalling.

[Tvetovnato]

But if Max only stays on track by being on the outside kerb within the track limits, where does it leave Lewis to go? He is required to be given space at that point on track. So if he is required to leave the track, the move is still illegal (again).

Well we don't know what would happen because of the collision obviously. I think Max would likely have pushed Hamilton out, given their previous encounters, but he might have made an effort to slow down and leave enough space for Hamilton. We don't know. Hypothetical scenarios can't be the basis for stewards, but they sure made an arbitrary decision that Max basically wasn't entitled to track position being "too fast"

Well, with the trajectory and speed he had going into that corner, it’s fairly certain it would be a carbon copy of Max’s divebomb in AD 21, where he basically went straight on, stopped at the white and then turned.

[RZS10]

It would be possible to get a very good estimate of their positions in the bird's eye view by distorting images from other cameras to fit at various points on the track - but for me (and probably for anyone else) the sheer scope of this if wanting enough frames of reference doesn't warrant it, especially if the result would be obvious anyways even without it.

[Gooch]

Wow, great effort! Thanks for sharing! I still think his line wasn't that tight, but we are almost in agreement. 9% high F_cf is considerable, but again it still depends on actual entry line and resulting radii, would he have braked, would he only get off-throttle, etc...

Again, I'm unhappy with arbitrarily made steward's decision and resulting penalty. Norris made and error over the curb, understeered into Leclerc and got the same penalty, while being given ample space and being clearly slower.

As far as this incident goes, it's a racing incident of two hot heads in my view. Someone would assign more blame to Max, someone more to Hamilton, but FIA inconsistency with penalties is appalling.

Yes, all the line analysis completely ignores the fact that to me Hamilton was clearly driving in such a manner that he had no intention of letting Verstappen by from the very entry of T1. He should have probably parked it or gave the gap and let Max do his thing. Either Verstappen runs to the edge of track for a potential penalty (I would think slam dunk penalty under the new guidelines) or has to basically stop and turn to make the corner which would be an easy re-overtake. As you say though, they're hot heads when they're together.