Cadillac racing in F1 with Andretti

[AR3-GP]

Yeah sorry meant Chrysler not GM.

Ferrari is Ferrari. Ferrari is not owned by Stellantis.

Stellantis don't have a foot in F1 besides Alfa Romeo.

Ferrari is 23% owned by Exor who also part own Stellantis. The structure has changed but it is the same people and the same organisations. Exor is 50% owned by Giovanni Agnelli BV. I doubt Ferrari will ever lose its links to the Agnelli family or that they will let go of Fiat.

I'm not sure you can say they aren't in F1, apart from that F1 team they own. I totally forgot about AR. The Exor group / Agnelli family have 2 teams in F1 then via all of their different companies.

To clarify, I was only pointing out that they are moreso sister brands, than 1 owned by the other. Ferrari's presence in F1 is not the hand of "stellantis".

It would be like arguing that Porsche has a stake in F1, because Audi will enter. If you were referring to VAG, then yes, but Stellantis? No. Stellantis has nothing to do with Ferrari. They are to different brands who happen to have some commonality of ownership.

[gshevlin]

Following the departure of Chase Carey from his CEO role and his replacement by Stefano Domenicali, the F1 teams and Liberty F1 appear to have reverted to the Ecclestone-era practice of negotiating in public via a mixture of contentious public statements, unattributable leaks and other methods of feeding titbits to the media.
The reactions so far to the Andretti announcement are clearly in line with that resurrected old way of working. Their position is clearly annoying the FIA, where Mohammed Ben Suleman has been dismantling the rather cozy way of working that had been in place under Jean Todt. So there is a new regulatory sheriff in town, a new Kid on the Block wanting to join F1 (Andretti), and the current spate of toy-chucking by the teams is a reversion to the old semi-public power games that used to occur constantly.

[gshevlin]

The bigger elephant in the room is that F1 teams have always tended to live in a bubble. They focus 100% on a narrow objective 12 months a year, they travel the world in custom transport and many of the principal figures never interact with the rest of the world except at arm's length.
As a result, F1 teams tend to be stunningly lacking in any awareness of how their comments and actions are percieved by the wider world. Think back to the amazement and shock in Ferrari after they imposed team orders in the 2002 Austrian Grand Prix. The team seemed unable to comprehend the scale of the disgust that the action invoked. They were oblivious because they were in a bubble.
Note also that every time F1 team principals end up in court, they usually get excoriated by judges for being evasive and untrustworthy.
The current "we don't want another team" whining is similarly bubble-based and oblivious, and, more seriously, if Andretti is rejected, they and GM may have options to go "scorched earth" and invoke US anti-trust legislation. That will not end well for F1.

[Sofa King]

The $200mm entry fee is clearly outdated, but there is a compromise that benefits all here. A much higher entry fee and a breaking in period of a few years where most of Andretti‘s prize money is linked to growth of the sport, like a stock option, could make sense along with a non-compete on all existing advertisers and some staff, would protect the current 10 teams.

[Sofa King]

The $200mm entry fee is clearly outdated, but there is a compromise that benefits all here. A much higher entry fee and a breaking in period of a few years where most of Andretti‘s prize money is linked to growth of the sport, like a stock option, could make sense along with a non-compete on all existing advertisers and some staff, would protect the current 10 teams.

[FW17]

The 200 million entery fee needs a little background. At the time of implementation FOM wanted more teams, they had no hope in Williams Haas etc. Remember this was befor the budget cap was discussed.

Liberty proposed that in order to attract new teams the price money distribution will made more equitable and for the first time ever all teams in the championship will get price money and new team would recieve price money for the first year, against the previous practice of awarding money to only the top 10 and no price money till 2 years.

Teams were opposed to this as, there were 10 teams at the time, and they wanted to keep it 10 and all will get the price money.

The new team was a must for liberty and they were not willing to back down, so as a last ditch effort they added the 200 million, but new new teams get price money from the very first year.

When the American head who introduced the new team idea, equitable distribution, Ferrari bonus gone, budget cap, retired, the teams lobbied to have the a failed Ferrari TP, one who had ideas of team unity over business sence to take over.

Now this failed Ferrari TP wants only team unity and knows nothing else, so will pander to them with no limit. So now 200 million which was put to pacify the teams is now become the rallying point for all these guys.

The failed Ferrari TP sold Ferrari core strength for unity, one from which Ferrari has never recovered even a decade later, is now at the same unity story again with the teams with no vaild reason for his organization which a few years back wanted more teams to change track. Is this guy American leadership material? Looks like he is operating at the lowest level of management thinking - my way or the highway.

[AMG.Tzan]

9 out of 10 teams are not in favor of a letting Andretti-Cadillac into Formula 1!

Not so long ago these same teams accepted Haas into the sport without any manufacturer backing and without Haas being as big a team in the US as Andretti! Not to mention HRT, Caterham and Manor! Three “GP2” teams that were racing on their own at the very back of the grid! These teams would make Williams look like midfield in 2019!

Over the years in general F1 has had teams that do not have any manufacturer backing and didn’t actually add anything to the sport! Can’t believe we had teams calling themselves “Racing Point” or “Force India” or “Haas” yet F1 teams think a new team called after a huge manufacturer like Cadillac, won’t add anything to the sport!

US teams like Penske, Ganassi and Andretti are way too big today for F1 to say no! Just to mention one of the biggest F1 teams, McLaren, is racing against all those US teams in IndyCar yet it doesn’t seem able to beat them yet!

[saviour stivala]

Actually 9 out of 10 teams are not in favor of any additional team being added to formula 1.

[nokivasara]

9 out of 10 teams are not in favor of a letting Andretti-Cadillac into Formula 1!

Not so long ago these same teams accepted Haas into the sport without any manufacturer backing and without Haas being as big a team in the US as Andretti! Not to mention HRT, Caterham and Manor! Three “GP2” teams that were racing on their own at the very back of the grid! These teams would make Williams look like midfield in 2019!

Over the years in general F1 has had teams that do not have any manufacturer backing and didn’t actually add anything to the sport! Can’t believe we had teams calling themselves “Racing Point” or “Force India” or “Haas” yet F1 teams think a new team called after a huge manufacturer like Cadillac, won’t add anything to the sport!

US teams like Penske, Ganassi and Andretti are way too big today for F1 to say no! Just to mention one of the biggest F1 teams, McLaren, is racing against all those US teams in IndyCar yet it doesn’t seem able to beat them yet!

I agree, it stinks. F1 will end up like WRC with a guaranteed top 10 finish for everyone

[AR3-GP]

I am surprised that the bigger teams have not tried to kick smaller teams out of the sport so the prize money is split between fewer teams.

[Baulz]

I am surprised that the bigger teams have not tried to kick smaller teams out of the sport so the prize money is split between fewer teams.

They need the small teams to run their young drivers, and the big teams do not want to finish last so someone else has to take that place.

[gshevlin]

The teams backed by engine manufacturers engaged in a power play over 10 years ago to torpedo the Cosworth "standard engine" that was supported by Max Moseley to help smaller teams be competitive. The manufacturers undercut Cosworth to supply their engines to the smaller teams and force Cosworth out of F1. The FIA helped the existing manufacturers (perhaps unwittingly) by freezing V8 engine development.

[gshevlin]

The $200m anti-dilution fee is baked into the current Concorde Agreement between LibertyF1 and the teams, and as such, Andretti has contract law on its side. The teams can make (and are making) a cogent argument that the fee should be higher because of the upward trend in team valuations since the agreement was signed, but right now, if Andretti agrees to pay the $200m, then they have fulfilled that condition.
Arguments by existing teams that the GM proposal is only a "badging deal" are not exactly credible when Alfa Romeo is paying to have its brand name plastered on the Sauber cars and cam plates, and Aston Martin is branding an F1 team while using Mercedes power units. Red Bull ran for 2 seasons with Tag Heuer badging on its Renault power units because they had a broken relationship with Renault at the time.
The teams can piss and moan and drag their heels on approving an entry, but ultimately LibertyF1 may have no way to prevent an Andretti entry, unless they want to be on the losing end of litigation. I suspect that the current Concorde Agreement has a provision for the use of Swiss law in the event of disputes. Andretti (and GM) could try litigation in the USA, but they would have to show that US courts have jurisdiction over F1 matters, so they might not be able to sue LibertyF1 in the US court system.
If US courts do have jurisdiction, they have shown in the past that they are willing to rule against sporting bodies and award punitive damages if they violate contract law. When the St. Louis Rams NFL team left St. Louis for Los Angeles, violating the NFL's own documented relocation rules, the city of St. Louis won $670m in damages. The case never came to court because the NFL settled rather than be embarrassed, and potentially end up paying even more than the agreed settlement.

[mwillems]

Ferrari is Ferrari. Ferrari is not owned by Stellantis.

Stellantis don't have a foot in F1 besides Alfa Romeo.

Ferrari is 23% owned by Exor who also part own Stellantis. The structure has changed but it is the same people and the same organisations. Exor is 50% owned by Giovanni Agnelli BV. I doubt Ferrari will ever lose its links to the Agnelli family or that they will let go of Fiat.

I'm not sure you can say they aren't in F1, apart from that F1 team they own. I totally forgot about AR. The Exor group / Agnelli family have 2 teams in F1 then via all of their different companies.

To clarify, I was only pointing out that they are moreso sister brands, than 1 owned by the other. Ferrari's presence in F1 is not the hand of "stellantis".

It would be like arguing that Porsche has a stake in F1, because Audi will enter. If you were referring to VAG, then yes, but Stellantis? No. Stellantis has nothing to do with Ferrari. They are to different brands who happen to have some commonality of ownership.

Well Audi is buying Sauber and Alfa will no longer be on the badge. Ferrari are still 23% owned by Exor (Who also own Stellantis and who's biggest shareholder is the Agnelli Family Company) and 10% by Peirro Ferrari, with the other two thirds being public so whilst Ferraris internal decision making structure may now be a little different and more independent (But still largely driven by the same people), the group still have an interest in which brands they would consider putting into F1, and would have a big say.

So you are right in that I got the structure wrong but I don't think it changes the point, Chrysler are part of the same group as Ferrari and other brands and the decision on putting a Chrysler team into F1, if it were ever considered, would be against the backdrop of the brands in the group that would most benefit.

[NL_Fer]

GM has the impression that Cadillac can compete in the Luxery EV market in Europe. If they play it right, they could have a chance with American style and luxery, without the downside of a thirsty V8 and European CO2 tax inflating the price. But then, GM --- up, any European adventure they did eventually.