2010 regulation row on £40m budget cap

[WhiteBlue]

I would think that Mario Theissen is honest and that Max Mosley told the teams to give him their conditions. That bit must be true. What probably neither Mercedes nor Max Mosley knew was the conditins which were agreed by FOTA. It appears that they were deliberately set in a way to provoke rejection because thy are not a negitiation step, but an ultimatum.

My impression is that Mosley was considerably pissed off by what came back last Friday. As a result of the "piss off strategy" by FOTA he will probably be just as stubborn. That explains his comments about FIA making the rules. So far in these discussions all parties usually avoided to publish an ultimatum. What Ferrari's Domenicali told the press last Sunday is a departure from the negotiation path. Knowing Max's nature one could only expect a very strong rebuff.

I reckon that FOTA had their answer. They know that the FIA will not accept their conditions. But they knew that even before they submitted the conditions. I do not expect Mosley to go one more step before FOTA takes back the ultimatum. So if they collectively do not want to compromise some of them may want to secure a place in F1 next year. We do not have to wait very long now to know.

One thing is almost 99% certain. The FIA will probably approve more than 3 new entries, and that will set the detonation charges to the FOTA foundations.

[timbo]

It appears that they were deliberately set in a way to provoke rejection because thy are not a negitiation step, but an ultimatum.

Teams asked for a new Concord that binds them until 2012. Isn't that a step?

[ISLAMATRON]

It appears that they were deliberately set in a way to provoke rejection because thy are not a negitiation step, but an ultimatum.

Teams asked for a new Concord that binds them until 2012. Isn't that a step?

A big one... I hope they get a big increase in the money payout in this new concorde for their commitment till 2012... which is not that far away actually.

[bhall]

nobody likes Max... but that is besides the point that something needs to be done to save the small teams, get new teams in, and protect against a mass exodus of the manufacturers precipitated by Honda.

Max and the FIA is the only one with a plan

I'd be willing to bet the house that had Honda known they had a sure-fire World Championship-winning car, they would have stayed in F1, costs be damned. Winning is never too expensive, ever.

And talk about a mass exodus of manufacturers: instituting a budget cap to theoretically bring parity to F1 would do just that. Epsilon, USF1, Prodrive, etc., have no business being on a level playing field with Toyota, Ferrari, BMW, Mercedes, etc., because they aren't equal companies.

The car manufacturers entered F1 precisely because F1 is one of the few forms of motorsport where having a corporate advantage, as it were, can translate into an advantage on the track; it's certainly the most popular. This is why F1 is the most diverse series in the world when it comes to car manufacturer involvement. Why should a car manufacturer stay when it can't put the full weight of its expertise and assets to work, when that's exactly what they are attempting to demonstrate?

That's not to say the results are always stellar (see: Panasonic Toyota Racing), but that's the rationale. Besides, Brawn's success this year, if Renault didn't do it in '05 and '06, proves that a modestly-funded team (relatively speaking, of course) can have success against the huge spenders.

[WhiteBlue]

I very much doubt that the teams will see a higher percentage of the FOM revenues. The letter of understanding which led to the current distribution was already signed on the assumption that the teams and their parent companies would sign for 5 years (2008-2012).

If they ask for a higher percentage they are breaking the contract and step away from what they signed. Bernie has no reason whatsoever to do such a thing and only blackmail could bring him to do such a thing.

I also think that the teams should have a higher share of the revenues and that some money should be spend at grass root level for the sport. But that has to be achieved in a legal way by negotiations or when when F1 goes into the next cycle in 2013.

[WhiteBlue]

... Epsilon, USF1, Prodrive, etc., have no business being on a level playing field with Toyota, Ferrari, BMW, Mercedes, etc., because they aren't equal companies.
.....

Sorry, but that makes no sense at all. In every sport a level playing field is the first requirement. The established teams have all started as small garagistas and even Ferrari started under very humble circumstances many decades ago.

Every team that can design a car and get a budget of 40-60 mil pound (like Super Aguri) deserves to race in F1 as much as a manufacturer who stumbles around without knowing what he does (like Hondo or Toyota did). Therefore every fan with some sporting ethos should support the budget cap of the FIA. With the offer of accepting a glide path Mosley was being perfectly reasonable only to be provoked again by the FOTA ultimatum.

[ISLAMATRON]

And then what happens when these big companies to which F1 is merely just a billboard leave the sport like Honda has done(3 times) or Renault is threatening(for the 3rd time) or Ford(Jaguar) did, or BMW, or Mercedes, or Peugeot, Alfa Romeo, Lotus, MAserati, or several others.

The manufacturers have left F1 in the past without budget caps and would in the future with or without them... They only see F1 as a huge billboard. When it no longer serves their purpose they leave. Honda was gone regardless, they knew that they had to pay for this year, offering even to sell the team for $1, no matter to them they wanted out... They couldnt even wait 1 month till they tested the new car. They broke the --- out like the chicken pox.

The Budget cap will not bring total parity, because the rich teams will still get to hire the best drivers because they can pay them the most(driver salaries are not in the cap).

Brawn has had a huge budget(and time) to develop this car so it is a bit of an anomaly, and so is Renault 05, 06 which were Michelin championships more so than Renault's, its limited success in those years meant little more than the effect of a tire war.



WhiteBlue: I was under the impression that whatever they negotiated in a new Concorde would supersede that "letter of understanding" which could be cancelled at anytime by any party... and that only FErrari & Williams had binding contracts with the FOM. Thus Ferraris actions can be seen as blackmail, they know BE wants them in F1.

[bhall]

Sorry, but that makes no sense at all. In every sport a level playing field is the first requirement. The established teams have all started as small garagistas and even Ferrari started under very humble circumstances many decades ago.

Every team that can design a car and get a budget of 40-60 mil pound (like Super Aguri) deserves to race in F1 as much as a manufacturer who stumbles around without knowing what he does (like Hondo or Toyota did). Therefore every fan with some sporting ethos should support the budget cap of the FIA. With the offer of accepting a glide path Mosley was being perfectly reasonable only to be provoked again by the FOTA ultimatum.

I don't agree with what you call a level playing field. F1, like every other sport, has regulations that all teams must follow, thus F1, along with every other sport, has a level playing field.

Manchester United plays the same game to the same rules as as Manchester City, yet no one would argue that they play on your definition of a level playing field. Manchester United has an advantage because they're a bigger club.

And precisely why should Ferrari, or any other team that has the wherewithal, give up an advantage that, to your own admission, they spent years, even decades, building?

EDIT: Super Aguri deserved nothing. For 1.5 years they served no purpose other than acting as moving chicanes and as a drain on Honda's budget. (For the life of me, I'll never understand why having Takuma Sato driving in F1 was necessary for Honda.)

[bhall]

And then what happens when these big companies to which F1 is merely just a billboard leave the sport like Honda has done(3 times) or Renault is threatening(for the 3rd time) or Ford(Jaguar) did, or BMW, or Mercedes, or Peugeot, Alfa Romeo, Lotus, MAserati, or several others.

The answer is that other teams step in and fill the void just like they always have. Has there ever not been F1 when the manufacturers, as you say, come and go?

[WhiteBlue]

And precisely why should Ferrari, or any other team that has the wherewithal, give up an advantage that, to your own admission, they spent years, even decades, building?

Because the egoism of the rich teams would ultimately destroy the sport we like. Nobody in his right mind preferred a Ferrari championship over a Williams championship. If a team wins the fans will cheer. If Brawn wins the championship mid season it is a bad as Ferrari winning mid season. We want the championship to go to the wire. We want to see good races. There will aways be new drivers and teams but the sport will go on. That is also true for Ferrari. The sport can be good and entertaining without Ferrari if they make unreasonable demands.

[bhall]

The "egoism" of the rich teams? What does that even mean?

And I think a great many people in their right minds would enthusiastically cheer a Ferrari win over Williams. Millions of them.

(I'm starting to see your motivations, though.)

And... were the past few seasons figments of my imagination? I could have sworn that in uncapped F1, the last two years produced dramatic finishes. Last year's title was decided on the final corner of the season, for crying out loud!

[paused]

Isn't all this argument about manufacturers leaving irrelevant? How many non manufacturer teams have entered and left the sport at some point. Pick any point in time and you will find that there are some teams wanting in and some teams wanting out. I find all the manufacturer bashing somewhat objectional. After all they are being forced to make some very tough decisions. Do you think it is fair that a company makes 10,000 workers redundant while at the same time spending 200M+ pounds on racing.

While the average racing fan may not like teams leaving the sport, it is hardly suprising that it happens. After all these are not companies run by a single individual that can just dictate what happens.

[flynfrog]

... Epsilon, USF1, Prodrive, etc., have no business being on a level playing field with Toyota, Ferrari, BMW, Mercedes, etc., because they aren't equal companies.
.....

Sorry, but that makes no sense at all. In every sport a level playing field is the first requirement. The established teams have all started as small garagistas and even Ferrari started under very humble circumstances many decades ago.

Every team that can design a car and get a budget of 40-60 mil pound (like Super Aguri) deserves to race in F1 as much as a manufacturer who stumbles around without knowing what he does (like Hondo or Toyota did). Therefore every fan with some sporting ethos should support the budget cap of the FIA. With the offer of accepting a glide path Mosley was being perfectly reasonable only to be provoked again by the FOTA ultimatum.

Nobody deserves anything. There is no guaranteed right to be in F1. Super Aguri had soem good finished but a terrible business model hence are now gone. There is a reason Teams like Maca Ferarri and Renault have been around for so long they know how to run a team. Has nothing to do with backing see honda they couldn't run a team out of a hole in the ground they too are now gone.


F1 has worked fine for over 50 years without a budget cap what makes you think it will fix anything.

There is zero chance to be enforced properly and a 99.9% chance the seasons winner will be deiced in a court room.

[ISLAMATRON]

It is true that the Manufacturers have very difficult financial decisions. It is wrong to bash them for what in actuality is making smart responsible business decisions, but the fact stands that F1 is not what is of most priority to them.

Yes we have seen manufacturers & independents come and go, but what we have not seen in F1 until now are huge manufacturers, spending huge amounts, while the economy is tanking.... which could very well lead to a mass exodus out of F1, furthermore destroying the sport.

The FIA is merely safe guarding against this "perfect storm"

[gcdugas]

Where are all these teams going to get their engines and transmissions? Cosworth? There is not one FOTA manufacturer that will let their engines be raced in Max's series. Even Williams have a year by year agreement with Toyota so they will be outa luck there too.

I hope Max enjoys F2... I mean F1 lite because that is what he will get. The question I want answered is what does FOM guarantee the tracks and TV people... will any 20 cars do? How about 20 2010 vintage GP2 cars? Will that do? Exactly what does BCE guarantee in FOM's contracts? What recourse will the promoters, TV people and track owners have if the FOTA core sets up their rival series? FOM will be left with a hollow spec racer series that one could argue breaches their contracts with various tracks, media outlets, commercial interests, and promoters. Prince Albert has no interest in holding a Monaco GP without Ferrari. That will certainly diminish FOM's luster.

And it won't take long for 100% of the fans to migrate to where the real action is.... where Toyota, BMW, M-B, Ferrari, Red Bull, McLaren, Brawn and Renault are all racing with Alonzo, Hamilton, Button, Kubica, Raikonnen, Massa etc. Even Rosberg may end up at McLaren. Who will be racing in F2... I mean FIA F1? Kazu? Big F**king deal!