Its not quite clear I think. It was also due to fact that Merc and Renault did not oppose RBPT as new entry. 3D printing was related to some Audi demands to oust it and Ferrari invested a lot and want to use it in road car tech as well.
General feeling can be that, RB has all the knowledge of an OEM and privy to the detailed design of the Honda engine and to that extent, they aren't exactly a new entrant and cannot get some liberties that a new manufacturer gets for 2026 engines.
Well you can't unlearn what you know, but they don't have any IP rights on any of that knowledge, and they have no experience manufacturing engines on their own. Also, Ben Hodgkinson would have detailed knowledge of Merc's engine concept too. Does that mean a new engine manufacturer can't hire from existing teams? Would that void their "new entry" status? That would be silly IMO.mendis wrote: ↑22 Jan 2023, 12:18General feeling can be that, RB has all the knowledge of an OEM and privy to the detailed design of the Honda engine and to that extent, they aren't exactly a new entrant and cannot get some liberties that a new manufacturer gets for 2026 engines.
Atleast, RB can control their fate as they move forward, rather than depending on an outside engine manufacturer and running door to door to get a supplier like they did so far. They should have done this by 2017 when Renault didn't meet the expectations. Now they need a strong fuel supplier who can form a long standing partnership. I don't know if Mobil can break out from Honda. But then they are currently a partner of Redbull and not Honda. So Honda would struggle if Mobil leaves them. With 2026 set to be 100% sustainable fuels, a new fuel supplier coming at this stage without having the experience of current generation of E10, is going to be a big draw back.
and even then, I'm rather skeptical about RBPT. Making a powerful and reliable PU is an enormous challenge. Ferrari and Renault have been doing it for years and still never quite got it right.Cs98 wrote: ↑22 Jan 2023, 15:38Well you can't unlearn what you know, but they don't have any IP rights on any of that knowledge, and they have no experience manufacturing engines on their own. Also, Ben Hodgkinson would have detailed knowledge of Merc's engine concept too. Does that mean a new engine manufacturer can't hire from existing teams? Would that void their "new entry" status? That would be silly IMO.mendis wrote: ↑22 Jan 2023, 12:18General feeling can be that, RB has all the knowledge of an OEM and privy to the detailed design of the Honda engine and to that extent, they aren't exactly a new entrant and cannot get some liberties that a new manufacturer gets for 2026 engines.
Atleast, RB can control their fate as they move forward, rather than depending on an outside engine manufacturer and running door to door to get a supplier like they did so far. They should have done this by 2017 when Renault didn't meet the expectations. Now they need a strong fuel supplier who can form a long standing partnership. I don't know if Mobil can break out from Honda. But then they are currently a partner of Redbull and not Honda. So Honda would struggle if Mobil leaves them. With 2026 set to be 100% sustainable fuels, a new fuel supplier coming at this stage without having the experience of current generation of E10, is going to be a big draw back.
The challenge of being a new engine manufacturer is much more than just having previous design knowledge. You are going up against already fully staffed manufacturers that have had decades to invest in factory infrastructure and perfect their design/manufacturing process. The concessions for new manufacturers are relatively modest when compared to that accumulated investment and experience. The fact RBPT has hired employees with previous experience I view as a pre-requisite to even get a project like this off the ground, not gaming the system.
Honda was stuck with a wrong partner from the beginning that made the job more difficult than it probably could have been.
With hybrid being simplified for 2026, it shouldn't be as difficult as it was with Honda. Besides, they can always tap in consultants likes Ilmore for material construction. More than any of us, I am sure Red Bull has through this carefully enough to plunge into it.“If we had continued with the McLaren project, I don’t really think we could have been successful, nor McLaren either.”
“The biggest reason probably is the shape we have started wasn’t really right. So, the project needs to be started with the right shape or communication, which we could not with McLaren.”
"With McLaren, they said ‘we take care of the politics and everything, so you just focus on making engines.’ That was the role.”
“The change for myself is that after starting with Toro Rosso, Franz said ‘you should speak to F1, you should speak to the FIA.’”
“And that’s something we could have done with Red Bull Racing and Toro Rosso. That was very key.”“We started from zero. That was a restart and we needed it. So, we stepped in a little bit more after starting with Red Bull.”
If they have met that target, then they already have an engine running on dyno. They would have 3 years with them to get it track ready.Red Bull Team Principal Christian Horner is confident that the ambitious Red Bull Powertrains project is on target, with the team boss expecting the first Red Bull engine to be running on the dyno by the end of 2022.
My guess is BP/Castrol if the Ford rumors are true. Ford and BP/Castrol have been partners for over 2 decades now in WRC and shortlived GTE project.mendis wrote: ↑22 Jan 2023, 12:18General feeling can be that, RB has all the knowledge of an OEM and privy to the detailed design of the Honda engine and to that extent, they aren't exactly a new entrant and cannot get some liberties that a new manufacturer gets for 2026 engines.
Atleast, RB can control their fate as they move forward, rather than depending on an outside engine manufacturer and running door to door to get a supplier like they did so far. They should have done this by 2017 when Renault didn't meet the expectations. Now they need a strong fuel supplier who can form a long standing partnership. I don't know if Mobil can break out from Honda. But then they are currently a partner of Redbull and not Honda. So Honda would struggle if Mobil leaves them. With 2026 set to be 100% sustainable fuels, a new fuel supplier coming at this stage without having the experience of current generation of E10, is going to be a big draw back.
Think the biggest difference is gonna be that the existing pu manufacturer are just tweaking the ICE and a revamping of the electronics. While new teams are building everything from the ground up. I wouldn't be surprised to see teams running split turbos in 2026, something teams had problems getting right..AR3-GP wrote: ↑22 Jan 2023, 15:50and even then, I'm rather skeptical about RBPT. Making a powerful and reliable PU is an enormous challenge. Ferrari and Renault have been doing it for years and still never quite got it right.Cs98 wrote: ↑22 Jan 2023, 15:38Well you can't unlearn what you know, but they don't have any IP rights on any of that knowledge, and they have no experience manufacturing engines on their own. Also, Ben Hodgkinson would have detailed knowledge of Merc's engine concept too. Does that mean a new engine manufacturer can't hire from existing teams? Would that void their "new entry" status? That would be silly IMO.mendis wrote: ↑22 Jan 2023, 12:18General feeling can be that, RB has all the knowledge of an OEM and privy to the detailed design of the Honda engine and to that extent, they aren't exactly a new entrant and cannot get some liberties that a new manufacturer gets for 2026 engines.
Atleast, RB can control their fate as they move forward, rather than depending on an outside engine manufacturer and running door to door to get a supplier like they did so far. They should have done this by 2017 when Renault didn't meet the expectations. Now they need a strong fuel supplier who can form a long standing partnership. I don't know if Mobil can break out from Honda. But then they are currently a partner of Redbull and not Honda. So Honda would struggle if Mobil leaves them. With 2026 set to be 100% sustainable fuels, a new fuel supplier coming at this stage without having the experience of current generation of E10, is going to be a big draw back.
The challenge of being a new engine manufacturer is much more than just having previous design knowledge. You are going up against already fully staffed manufacturers that have had decades to invest in factory infrastructure and perfect their design/manufacturing process. The concessions for new manufacturers are relatively modest when compared to that accumulated investment and experience. The fact RBPT has hired employees with previous experience I view as a pre-requisite to even get a project like this off the ground, not gaming the system.
It took Honda several years to get it right.
Ferrari weren't neccesarily arguing from a perspective of logic. They are simply choosing to exercise their right to make things difficult for a rival. That's right out of the political toolbox.
I know Ferrari are doing it out of political spite. But there are a some "fans" who argue RBPT are not a new manufacturer because they have "previous knowledge" or whatever. I think that's severely underestimating the challenge of manufacturing your own PU. There are gonna be a lot of teething problems when setting up your own operation, regardless of how experienced your employees are. And tbh, I don't even think RB has detail knowledge of the Honda engine. All the design and manufacturing took place in Japan, solely by Honda. RB was obviously involved in the of operation and maintenance of the engines. But detail knowledge about the intricacies and materials inside the engine? Doubt it. Things like that proprietary coating Honda uses on the pistons (IIRC), no way RB knows how to make that. I doubt most Honda engineers even know what's in that, they don't need to.
I agree. It's a very difficult proposition.Cs98 wrote: ↑22 Jan 2023, 18:24I know Ferrari are doing it out of political spite. But there are a some "fans" who argue RBPT are not a new manufacturer because they have "previous knowledge" or whatever. I think that's severely underestimating the challenge of manufacturing your own PU. There are gonna be a lot of teething problems when setting up your own operation, regardless of how experienced your employees are. And tbh, I don't even think RB has detail knowledge of the Honda engine. All the design and manufacturing took place in Japan, solely by Honda. RB was obviously involved in the of operation and maintenance of the engines. But detail knowledge about the intricacies and materials inside the engine? Doubt it. Things like that proprietary coating Honda uses on the pistons (IIRC), no way RB knows how to make that. I doubt most Honda engineers even know what's in that, they don't need to.
I guess they have had 5-6months development since they didn’t bring any in late end of the seasonVenturiation wrote: ↑25 Jan 2023, 15:25Redbull will surprise everyone with their evolution no one can catch them
Barely any content but hey-hoVerstappen does not want Ricciardo to prepare Red Bull car setup
"I also don't want a test driver to take over the simulator sessions, like other teams do. I want to do it myself, because everyone has their own driving style."
