This forum contains threads to discuss teams themselves. Anything not technical about the cars, including restructuring, performances etc belongs here.
It seems like Lando is impatient in regards to McLaren getting into competitive form and you can't blame him.
I agree though, that the team can't keep using the wind tunnel as an excuse, especially when the car last year was close to 1.5% behind the leading car's pace on average.
If it was 0.7-1 then yeah, I'll take the wind tunnel excuse. But they have to admit when they don't do a good enough job as well, because they started the season with a car that was slower than both Haas and Alfa Romeo.
Those are both teams that have inferior technical capabilities from a pure objective standpoint, yet they did a much better job.
It seems like Lando is impatient in regards to McLaren getting into competitive form and you can't blame him.
I agree though, that the team can't keep using the wind tunnel as an excuse, especially when the car last year was close to 1.5% behind the leading car's pace on average.
If it was 0.7-1 then yeah, I'll take the wind tunnel excuse. But they have to admit when they don't do a good enough job as well, because they started the season with a car that was slower than both Haas and Alfa Romeo.
Those are both teams that have inferior technical capabilities from a pure objective standpoint, yet they did a much better job.
Sauber/Alfa Romeo are supposed to have pretty good facilities, if I'm not mistaken.
Q: (Stefano Mancini – La Stampa) Kimi, will you help Vettel to win his championship this year?
Kimi Raikkonen: I can only drive one car, obviously.
@2018 Singapore Grand Prix drivers press conference.
It seems like Lando is impatient in regards to McLaren getting into competitive form and you can't blame him.
I agree though, that the team can't keep using the wind tunnel as an excuse, especially when the car last year was close to 1.5% behind the leading car's pace on average.
If it was 0.7-1 then yeah, I'll take the wind tunnel excuse. But they have to admit when they don't do a good enough job as well, because they started the season with a car that was slower than both Haas and Alfa Romeo.
Those are both teams that have inferior technical capabilities from a pure objective standpoint, yet they did a much better job.
Sauber/Alfa Romeo are supposed to have pretty good facilities, if I'm not mistaken.
They might, But Mclaren created an expectation to us as fans that they will be back to winning ways/Fighting for championships and the more seasons that past there always seems to be some excuse.
With Ferrari for example they had a car that was right there and as bad as last year was you could see very easily where the weakness was, With Mclaren personally I don't think they really know where they are going wrong.
It seems like Lando is impatient in regards to McLaren getting into competitive form and you can't blame him.
I agree though, that the team can't keep using the wind tunnel as an excuse, especially when the car last year was close to 1.5% behind the leading car's pace on average.
If it was 0.7-1 then yeah, I'll take the wind tunnel excuse. But they have to admit when they don't do a good enough job as well, because they started the season with a car that was slower than both Haas and Alfa Romeo.
Those are both teams that have inferior technical capabilities from a pure objective standpoint, yet they did a much better job.
Sauber/Alfa Romeo are supposed to have pretty good facilities, if I'm not mistaken.
They might, But Mclaren created an expectation to us as fans that they will be back to winning ways/Fighting for championships and the more seasons that past there always seems to be some excuse.
With Ferrari for example they had a car that was right there and as bad as last year was you could see very easily where the weakness was, With Mclaren personally I don't think they really know where they are going wrong.
Pretty sure McLaren have said they won’t be in a position to win until the infrastructure projects are up and running. At this point there is therefore no excuses….
I don't know if it's right to accept that the infrastructure is that much of a handicap that they cant create a car that can mix with the first 3. I'm not saying a car able to get a championship but they should have been able to mix with the first three by now. They did it at 2021 and they had the same facilities.
It seems like Lando is impatient in regards to McLaren getting into competitive form and you can't blame him.
I agree though, that the team can't keep using the wind tunnel as an excuse, especially when the car last year was close to 1.5% behind the leading car's pace on average.
If it was 0.7-1 then yeah, I'll take the wind tunnel excuse. But they have to admit when they don't do a good enough job as well, because they started the season with a car that was slower than both Haas and Alfa Romeo.
Those are both teams that have inferior technical capabilities from a pure objective standpoint, yet they did a much better job.
Sauber/Alfa Romeo are supposed to have pretty good facilities, if I'm not mistaken.
They might, But Mclaren created an expectation to us as fans that they will be back to winning ways/Fighting for championships and the more seasons that past there always seems to be some excuse.
With Ferrari for example they had a car that was right there and as bad as last year was you could see very easily where the weakness was, With Mclaren personally I don't think they really know where they are going wrong.
Not sure where you got that impression from McLaren, but Zak said they were on a 5 year plan to battle at the front, this was in 2018. If you consider the setback caused by covid, they're still honouring that time frame. The only thing is they're expected to make progress along the way. 2022 was a frustrating step back, but let's see how they get on in 2023.
Q: (Stefano Mancini – La Stampa) Kimi, will you help Vettel to win his championship this year?
Kimi Raikkonen: I can only drive one car, obviously.
@2018 Singapore Grand Prix drivers press conference.
I don't know if it's right to accept that the infrastructure is that much of a handicap that they cant create a car that can mix with the first 3. I'm not saying a car able to get a championship but they should have been able to mix with the first three by now. They did it at 2021 and they had the same facilities.
The wind tunnel is instrumental to car design… why shouldn’t it be considered a handicap.
If the team are adamant thats the gap that needs filling that’s certainly a handicap… comparing anything to 2021 is difficult because it was a weird year… where Ferrari wasn’t in its normal position, and some teams benefitted and some regressed from the floor changes… + the whole token and homologation system..
I don't know if it's right to accept that the infrastructure is that much of a handicap that they cant create a car that can mix with the first 3. I'm not saying a car able to get a championship but they should have been able to mix with the first three by now. They did it at 2021 and they had the same facilities.
The wind tunnel is instrumental to car design… why shouldn’t it be considered a handicap.
If the team are adamant thats the gap that needs filling that’s certainly a handicap… comparing anything to 2021 is difficult because it was a weird year… where Ferrari wasn’t in its normal position, and some teams benefitted and some regressed from the floor changes… + the whole token and homologation system..
What about the infrastructure in Alpine? What is the state of their infrastructure. cause if you think about it, if theirs is state of the art and they are still producing awerage performing cars, than it isnt as straightforward as it seems.
Did read somewhere that their (Alpines) inability to climb to the top is the result of years of underinvestment so maybe it is as simple as just the lack of infrastructure.
I don't know if it's right to accept that the infrastructure is that much of a handicap that they cant create a car that can mix with the first 3. I'm not saying a car able to get a championship but they should have been able to mix with the first three by now. They did it at 2021 and they had the same facilities.
I would imagine it was a lot easier to handle 2021 since McLaren had the 2020 car, which was substantially similar, as a reference point (noting the floor changes). McLaren could correlate their understanding of the 2020 car with what the wind tunnel was predicting for 2021.
The massive rule change to 2022 is much harder as there's no ability to infer knowledge from the car to the output from the wind tunnel.
Point being, outdated facilities are more impactful around major rule changes since the ability to infer knowledge from the existing car is not possible.
In a somewhat related way, I'd contend this is why the benefit of being a works team on engine varies too. Now that the engine regulations are frozen, there cannot be much of benefit from being a works team until 2026 when the new power units arrive. Yet when major rule changes happen, especially ones that force significant power unit changes, being a works team is much more important. Fortunately, at least the facilities will all be upgraded for McLaren by that time.
I don't know if it's right to accept that the infrastructure is that much of a handicap that they cant create a car that can mix with the first 3. I'm not saying a car able to get a championship but they should have been able to mix with the first three by now. They did it at 2021 and they had the same facilities.
The wind tunnel is instrumental to car design… why shouldn’t it be considered a handicap.
If the team are adamant thats the gap that needs filling that’s certainly a handicap… comparing anything to 2021 is difficult because it was a weird year… where Ferrari wasn’t in its normal position, and some teams benefitted and some regressed from the floor changes… + the whole token and homologation system..
What about the infrastructure in Alpine? What is the state of their infrastructure. cause if you think about it, if theirs is state of the art and they are still producing awerage performing cars, than it isnt as straightforward as it seems.
Did read somewhere that their (Alpines) inability to climb to the top is the result of years of underinvestment so maybe it is as simple as just the lack of infrastructure.
It's hard to Compare but Alpine did upgrade thier wind tunnel a few years ago. They've been upgrading everything since they took over from Lotus. It hasn't been a complete tear down and rebuild or at the same pace as Auston Martin. Last year Alpine purchased a Virtual Test Track, McLaren has to leases one.
I have mixed feelings on the main issues and claims in the recent debates on infrastructure, drivers struggling to adapt, and overall performance trajectory of the team.
First, like some here, I have concerns that too much belief is put into the angle that the new tunnel will be somehow a magic bullet. It sounds reminiscent of when the team believed the Honda PU was undermining a car that had the best chassis of 2017. Clearly there are still some major improvements needed across the board before thinking of challenging for wins and championships.
Second, the strange characteristics story has been overblown and extended in my opinion. Were it not for Daniel’s dip in form the story would have fallen off the radar. Generally, talented young drivers, which Oscar most certainly is, bring a fresh mindset, and tend to be highly adaptable. The latter is definitely a two-edged sword as they drive around issues more than they bring experience to bear on car development. McLaren will likely rely heavily on Lando to develop this year’s car.
Third, there is an understandable negative mindset to McLaren’s overall trajectory which I take issue with. When fans, as I assume most of us here are, endure a season as disappointing as 2022 was for McLaren, many become pessimistic and say the team are on the downslope. I would point out that the 2022 car was a lemon until such time (2023?) that slipping back down the field becomes a trend. I’m unhappy with 2022’s car which I think was subpar and I’m surprised that Key’s design team got the new regs wrong to the extent they did. Yes the 36 was a bit of a pig but to what extent? 4th place was within the car’s ability were it not for a really terrible effort by Daniel and 4th should have been easily the result. On the other hand the gap to the big three opened significantly. This revealed the baked in greater resources of these teams, especially Mercedes who were able to recover from a rubbish car from the start of the year.
McLaren made steady progress from early 2019 to late 2021, now that’s more of a trend than a blip isn’t it! Slightly lucky podium at end of 2019, a few genuine podiums in 2020, culminating in win and pole at consecutive GPS in Italy and Russia. Yes it tailed off but the culprit for last year was mainly some poor assumptions around the new regs.
So concluding, McLaren need to halve the gap before the new infrastructure is in the mix (no easy feat), Piastri will almost certainly be the driver revelation of 2023 once he settles in, and history should show that 2022 was a blip rather than part of a bigger trend. All these are generally underpinned by my optimism as opposed to pessimism expressed by others. As long as we have a strong fight for P4 and close the gap to the leaders to under 1.0, we should feel encouraged for the future with the new technologies.
Mclaren is simply not doing a good enough job. And makes all their other initiatives and haha SoMe all the more tiresome.
Hell they just recently found out they are lacking engineers, well no --- sherlock. They havent excelled in any area of car development for years, and they continued to think they have the right staff. Add to that the most laissez fair tech dir in Key.
I can understand Lando applies pressure.
If i were to speculate, maybe seidl was pro audi marriage or any manufacture tie up, but was turned down, and he left. Honestly i find it both naive, ignorant and disturbing Mclaren honestly think they can make it on their own but off ourse i hope to be proven otherwise
Last edited by f1rules on 24 Jan 2023, 21:30, edited 1 time in total.
Agree, in short this will be a very important year for mcl. Either they will confirm theyre on a downwards trajectory or hopefully show that last year was just a dip in a otherwise positive trend. Personally im curious about aston, everything they did, the investments, the recruitments, their new tech dir and the interviews he gave, very impressive and much more pragmatic and rational than say mclaren.
On the positive side, atleast mclaren now have a concept to copy for this year, as coming up with great designs themselves isnt one of their strongest sides
I have mixed feelings on the main issues and claims in the recent debates on infrastructure, drivers struggling to adapt, and overall performance trajectory of the team.
First, like some here, I have concerns that too much belief is put into the angle that the new tunnel will be somehow a magic bullet. It sounds reminiscent of when the team believed the Honda PU was undermining a car that had the best chassis of 2017. Clearly there are still some major improvements needed across the board before thinking of challenging for wins and championships.
Second, the strange characteristics story has been overblown and extended in my opinion. Were it not for Daniel’s dip in form the story would have fallen off the radar. Generally, talented young drivers, which Oscar most certainly is, bring a fresh mindset, and tend to be highly adaptable. The latter is definitely a two-edged sword as they drive around issues more than they bring experience to bear on car development. McLaren will likely rely heavily on Lando to develop this year’s car.
Third, there is an understandable negative mindset to McLaren’s overall trajectory which I take issue with. When fans, as I assume most of us here are, endure a season as disappointing as 2022 was for McLaren, many become pessimistic and say the team are on the downslope. I would point out that the 2022 car was a lemon until such time (2023?) that slipping back down the field becomes a trend. I’m unhappy with 2022’s car which I think was subpar and I’m surprised that Key’s design team got the new regs wrong to the extent they did. Yes the 36 was a bit of a pig but to what extent? 4th place was within the car’s ability were it not for a really terrible effort by Daniel and 4th should have been easily the result. On the other hand the gap to the big three opened significantly. This revealed the baked in greater resources of these teams, especially Mercedes who were able to recover from a rubbish car from the start of the year.
McLaren made steady progress from early 2019 to late 2021, now that’s more of a trend than a blip isn’t it! Slightly lucky podium at end of 2019, a few genuine podiums in 2020, culminating in win and pole at consecutive GPS in Italy and Russia. Yes it tailed off but the culprit for last year was mainly some poor assumptions around the new regs.
So concluding, McLaren need to halve the gap before the new infrastructure is in the mix (no easy feat), Piastri will almost certainly be the driver revelation of 2023 once he settles in, and history should show that 2022 was a blip rather than part of a bigger trend. All these are generally underpinned by my optimism as opposed to pessimism expressed by others. As long as we have a strong fight for P4 and close the gap to the leaders to under 1.0, we should feel encouraged for the future with the new technologies.
Agree, in short this will be a very important year for mcl. Either they will confirm theyre on a downwards trajectory or hopefully show that last year was just a dip in a otherwise positive trend. Personally im curious about aston, everything they did, the investments, the recruitments, their new tech dir and the interviews he gave, very impressive and much more pragmatic and rational than say mclaren.
On the positive side, atleast mclaren now have a concept to copy for this year, as coming up with great designs themselves isnt one of their strongest sides
I have mixed feelings on the main issues and claims in the recent debates on infrastructure, drivers struggling to adapt, and overall performance trajectory of the team.
First, like some here, I have concerns that too much belief is put into the angle that the new tunnel will be somehow a magic bullet. It sounds reminiscent of when the team believed the Honda PU was undermining a car that had the best chassis of 2017. Clearly there are still some major improvements needed across the board before thinking of challenging for wins and championships.
Second, the strange characteristics story has been overblown and extended in my opinion. Were it not for Daniel’s dip in form the story would have fallen off the radar. Generally, talented young drivers, which Oscar most certainly is, bring a fresh mindset, and tend to be highly adaptable. The latter is definitely a two-edged sword as they drive around issues more than they bring experience to bear on car development. McLaren will likely rely heavily on Lando to develop this year’s car.
Third, there is an understandable negative mindset to McLaren’s overall trajectory which I take issue with. When fans, as I assume most of us here are, endure a season as disappointing as 2022 was for McLaren, many become pessimistic and say the team are on the downslope. I would point out that the 2022 car was a lemon until such time (2023?) that slipping back down the field becomes a trend. I’m unhappy with 2022’s car which I think was subpar and I’m surprised that Key’s design team got the new regs wrong to the extent they did. Yes the 36 was a bit of a pig but to what extent? 4th place was within the car’s ability were it not for a really terrible effort by Daniel and 4th should have been easily the result. On the other hand the gap to the big three opened significantly. This revealed the baked in greater resources of these teams, especially Mercedes who were able to recover from a rubbish car from the start of the year.
McLaren made steady progress from early 2019 to late 2021, now that’s more of a trend than a blip isn’t it! Slightly lucky podium at end of 2019, a few genuine podiums in 2020, culminating in win and pole at consecutive GPS in Italy and Russia. Yes it tailed off but the culprit for last year was mainly some poor assumptions around the new regs.
So concluding, McLaren need to halve the gap before the new infrastructure is in the mix (no easy feat), Piastri will almost certainly be the driver revelation of 2023 once he settles in, and history should show that 2022 was a blip rather than part of a bigger trend. All these are generally underpinned by my optimism as opposed to pessimism expressed by others. As long as we have a strong fight for P4 and close the gap to the leaders to under 1.0, we should feel encouraged for the future with the new technologies.
Very amusing how you imply McLaren should copy others after an entire article on the technical brilliance of AMR, who’s Only decent performance has come from directly copying the merc and RB18
