2023 car speculation

A place to discuss the characteristics of the cars in Formula One, both current as well as historical. Laptimes, driver worshipping and team chatter do not belong here.
User avatar
Sisyphus_1
0
Joined: 30 Dec 2022, 19:50

Re: 2023 car speculation

Post

This alone hurts RB and Ferrari the most, as their relative advantage to the rest of the field will be cut significantly. Performance/downforce loss that also comes with changes will also be more benefitial for teams that didn't solve the bouncing without sacrificing performance. So yeah, no wonder Ferrari and RB were pissed with Merc pushing the safety "issues" to reduce the performance gap.
[/quote]

I don't disagree with your technical argument but I fail to see how reducing the performance gap hurts redbull or ferrari, not from a technical perspective anyway.

Merc started and ended the season with pretty much the same deficit to RB.

Pegging back RB will improve their chances here and there but they didn't have the knowledge base to build an rb18 competitor in the first place, so what guarantee do we have they will succeed with a raised floor and raised tunnel, especially considering they've gone low rake since 2014.

The RB18 already is rumoured to have higher tunnels than most of the grid along with higher ride height, so wouldn't they be the least effected potentially ?

We know also that the rear suspension on the MERC is a big issue too so they not only have aero to solve but also the rear suspension and probably a new gearbox casing.

User avatar
Sisyphus_1
0
Joined: 30 Dec 2022, 19:50

Re: 2023 car speculation

Post

This alone hurts RB and Ferrari the most, as their relative advantage to the rest of the field will be cut significantly. Performance/downforce loss that also comes with changes will also be more benefitial for teams that didn't solve the bouncing without sacrificing performance. So yeah, no wonder Ferrari and RB were pissed with Merc pushing the safety "issues" to reduce the performance gap.
[/quote]

I don't disagree with your technical argument but I fail to see how reducing the performance gap hurts redbull or ferrari, not from a technical perspective anyway.

Merc started and ended the season with pretty much the same deficit to RB.

Pegging back RB will improve their chances here and there but they didn't have the knowledge base to build an rb18 competitor in the first place, so what guarantee do we have they will succeed with a raised floor and raised tunnel, especially considering they've gone low rake since 2014.

The RB18 already is rumoured to have higher tunnels than most of the grid along with higher ride height, so wouldn't they be the least effected potentially ?

We know also that the rear suspension on the MERC is a big issue too so they not only have aero to solve but also the rear suspension and probably a new gearbox casing.

User avatar
chrisc90
41
Joined: 23 Feb 2022, 21:22

Re: 2023 car speculation

Post

What are the chances the RB throat and floor tunnels were already very close to the regulations for 2023?

As in say there is a window of 200-220mm throat height for the floor and the new regulations are 215-235mm. (numbers are an example of the tolerances im questioning.
Mess with the Bull - you get the horns.

User avatar
continuum16
49
Joined: 30 Nov 2015, 17:35
Location: Kansas

Re: 2023 car speculation

Post

chrisc90 wrote:
04 Jan 2023, 21:34
What are the chances the RB throat and floor tunnels were already very close to the regulations for 2023?

As in say there is a window of 200-220mm throat height for the floor and the new regulations are 215-235mm. (numbers are an example of the tolerances im questioning.
I don’t know how close, but I’d definitely say they were the closest. Newey has said multiple times that RB did not pursue a concept which absolutely required running as low as possible, unlike the other 9 teams (or 8 if you count Aston’s “alternative concept”). It would seem to me like compared to 2022 RB would have to change the least to comply with the new regs.
"You can't argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience"
- Mark Twain

User avatar
Vanja #66
1571
Joined: 19 Mar 2012, 16:38

Re: 2023 car speculation

Post

chrisc90 wrote:
04 Jan 2023, 21:34
What are the chances the RB throat and floor tunnels were already very close to the regulations for 2023?

As in say there is a window of 200-220mm throat height for the floor and the new regulations are 215-235mm. (numbers are an example of the tolerances im questioning.
I don't think so, their solution seems to focus on forming a single strong zone with a peak downforce which depends on a very low throat in a very small length. Horner wasn't happy with changes and it's easy to see why.

viewtopic.php?f=12&p=1089281#p1089281

RB18 was running really low all the time, but their (small) rake meant at lower speeds this wasn't the case - although at lower speeds aero is less valuable. So their suspension is versatile, which was very important. 2023 floor changes will only benefit the Mercedes team as I said. W13 was designed to work as low as possible and they influenced the rule change to make all other teams change their designs and likely raise their tunnels - while Merc will be able to lower the tub to run the suspension in optimal zone while their tunnels stay at the same ride height as they were with latest updates.
And they call it a stall. A STALL!

#DwarvesAreNaturalSprinters
#BlessYouLaddie

LM10
LM10
121
Joined: 07 Mar 2018, 00:07

Re: 2023 car speculation

Post

Vanja #66 wrote:
06 Jan 2023, 22:06
chrisc90 wrote:
04 Jan 2023, 21:34
What are the chances the RB throat and floor tunnels were already very close to the regulations for 2023?

As in say there is a window of 200-220mm throat height for the floor and the new regulations are 215-235mm. (numbers are an example of the tolerances im questioning.
I don't think so, their solution seems to focus on forming a single strong zone with a peak downforce which depends on a very low throat in a very small length. Horner wasn't happy with changes and it's easy to see why.

viewtopic.php?f=12&p=1089281#p1089281

RB18 was running really low all the time, but their (small) rake meant at lower speeds this wasn't the case - although at lower speeds aero is less valuable. So their suspension is versatile, which was very important. 2023 floor changes will only benefit the Mercedes team as I said. W13 was designed to work as low as possible and they influenced the rule change to make all other teams change their designs and likely raise their tunnels - while Merc will be able to lower the tub to run the suspension in optimal zone while their tunnels stay at the same ride height as they were with latest updates.
I still wonder how all other teams accepted those rule changes or did it go through without the need of the teams’ OK because it was for “safety reasons”?

User avatar
Vanja #66
1571
Joined: 19 Mar 2012, 16:38

Re: 2023 car speculation

Post

8 teams are needed for rule change, so maybe not all the teams voted. Not sure, it could be that these types of "safety" changes don't need teams' approval.
And they call it a stall. A STALL!

#DwarvesAreNaturalSprinters
#BlessYouLaddie

User avatar
Ashwinv16
60
Joined: 15 Jul 2017, 12:04

Re: 2023 car speculation

Post

Vanja #66 wrote:
06 Jan 2023, 22:06
chrisc90 wrote:
04 Jan 2023, 21:34
What are the chances the RB throat and floor tunnels were already very close to the regulations for 2023?

As in say there is a window of 200-220mm throat height for the floor and the new regulations are 215-235mm. (numbers are an example of the tolerances im questioning.
I don't think so, their solution seems to focus on forming a single strong zone with a peak downforce which depends on a very low throat in a very small length. Horner wasn't happy with changes and it's easy to see why.

viewtopic.php?f=12&p=1089281#p1089281

RB18 was running really low all the time, but their (small) rake meant at lower speeds this wasn't the case - although at lower speeds aero is less valuable. So their suspension is versatile, which was very important. 2023 floor changes will only benefit the Mercedes team as I said. W13 was designed to work as low as possible and they influenced the rule change to make all other teams change their designs and likely raise their tunnels - while Merc will be able to lower the tub to run the suspension in optimal zone while their tunnels stay at the same ride height as they were with latest updates.
This RB18 was one of the highest running cars. It looked like it ran low, due to the ice skates that scraped the floor, which is not entirely easy to implement into the 2023 raised floors. This is what got the RB side mad. However RB by the end of the season figured out to run without the help of the ice skates. BUT so did Aston Martin, Mclaren and Alpine who spent most of their upgrades last season trying to run cars as high as they can but agin with ice skates liek feature. Mercedes managed to get the car to run successfully at at low ride heights, NOT HIGH (Abu Dhabi proved that as the track requires a higher ride height for better balance between low and medium speed corners). In short the 2023 rules changes favour nobody.
Halo not as bad as we thought

User avatar
Vanja #66
1571
Joined: 19 Mar 2012, 16:38

Re: 2023 car speculation

Post

Ashwinv16 wrote:
26 Jan 2023, 04:05
This RB18 was one of the highest running cars. It looked like it ran low, due to the ice skates that scraped the floor, which is not entirely easy to implement into the 2023 raised floors. This is what got the RB side mad. However RB by the end of the season figured out to run without the help of the ice skates. BUT so did Aston Martin, Mclaren and Alpine who spent most of their upgrades last season trying to run cars as high as they can but agin with ice skates liek feature. Mercedes managed to get the car to run successfully at at low ride heights, NOT HIGH (Abu Dhabi proved that as the track requires a higher ride height for better balance between low and medium speed corners). In short the 2023 rules changes favour nobody.
It will absolutely favour Merc, read more here

viewtopic.php?p=1108144#p1108144

viewtopic.php?p=1108174#p1108174

viewtopic.php?p=1108236#p1108236
And they call it a stall. A STALL!

#DwarvesAreNaturalSprinters
#BlessYouLaddie

SirBastianVettel
SirBastianVettel
13
Joined: 28 Jun 2020, 10:54

Re: 2023 car speculation

Post

Vanja #66 wrote:
26 Jan 2023, 10:40
It will absolutely favour Merc, read more here

viewtopic.php?p=1108144#p1108144

viewtopic.php?p=1108174#p1108174

viewtopic.php?p=1108236#p1108236
Please forgive my ignorance, but is the change in floor regulations small enough that teams will try to adapt their existing design or is the change significant enough to completely rethink your design philosophy? If it's the latter, then essentially all teams would get a clean sheet and we can't really say anything about who will nail these new '23 cars.

User avatar
Vanja #66
1571
Joined: 19 Mar 2012, 16:38

Re: 2023 car speculation

Post

SirBastianVettel wrote:
26 Jan 2023, 16:59
Please forgive my ignorance, but is the change in floor regulations small enough that teams will try to adapt their existing design or is the change significant enough to completely rethink your design philosophy? If it's the latter, then essentially all teams would get a clean sheet and we can't really say anything about who will nail these new '23 cars.
Initial proposal for changes was raising edges and throat 25mm, which was immediately discarded by teams as a dramatic change. Final changes were an acceptable compromise that doesn't require complete change of philosophy of all the details. Still, performance ceiling of the floor is lower so all teams save RB and Ferrari will have a chance to reduce the gap a bit.
And they call it a stall. A STALL!

#DwarvesAreNaturalSprinters
#BlessYouLaddie

User avatar
Blackout
1566
Joined: 09 Feb 2010, 04:12

Re: 2023 car speculation

Post

What if you combine micro-sidepods (a la FW44/W13 'mark 1') with wide sidepod shoulders?
It's basically a more agressive version of the A522 'mark 2', where the water slides descend more directly : )
But good luck with the exhaust packaging and the hot air channeling.
Unless you use multiple shark gills instead of rear cannon exists (Ferrari/Haas/Alfa), or a big centerline cooling system (especially like... Williams), or opt to use 1 PU per race.

Image

User avatar
Blackout
1566
Joined: 09 Feb 2010, 04:12

Re: 2023 car speculation

Post

However, you can pass that hot air from sidepod directly through the floor, by making its thick sections hollow and transforming them into channels, and by placing those hot exits below the beam wing, in that suction area...

Just kidding. This is probably very illegal (just like the sidepod extensions above. They probably need to be connected to the car's body..)

Image

AR3-GP
AR3-GP
365
Joined: 06 Jul 2021, 01:22

Re: 2023 car speculation

Post

Blackout wrote:
29 Jan 2023, 11:58
What if you combine micro-sidepods (a la FW44/W13 'mark 1') with wide sidepod shoulders?
It's basically a more agressive version of the A522 'mark 2', where the water slides descend more directly : )
But good luck with the exhaust packaging and the hot air channeling.
Unless you use multiple shark gills instead of rear cannon exists (Ferrari/Haas/Alfa), or a big centerline cooling system (especially like... Williams), or opt to use 1 PU per race.

https://s3.gifyu.com/images/ezgif.com-g ... a3002e.gif
I, like you, am also unsure of the practicality, but this is fun to look at :P
A lion must kill its prey.

User avatar
organic
1055
Joined: 08 Jan 2022, 02:24
Location: Cambridge, UK

Re: 2023 car speculation

Post




F f s #-o #-o

The associated article from AMuS says that it isn't known for certain why the weight limit of 796kg was talked up by the engineers and the change walked back by the FIA.. but suggests pirelli may be bringing heavier tyres and that's the reason

Translation of the AMuS article by DeepL (if there are mistakes, feel free to pm and I will correct):
Actually, the Formula 1 racers should finally lose some weight this year. But after back and forth in recent weeks, the teams have reached an agreement with the FIA that the minimum weight will remain the same as in the previous season.

It is one of the drivers' biggest criticisms of the current Formula 1 generation. The racing cars are simply too heavy and thus too sluggish, especially in slow corners. In the past years, the minimum weight specified in paragraph 4.1 of the technical regulations knew only one direction - upwards. In the period from 2013 to 2022, the racing cars gained a whopping 156 kilograms.

The first major increase in weight came right at the beginning of this decade. The introduction of the turbo hybrid engines in the 2014 season caused the limit to shoot up from 642 to 691 kilograms (+49 kg). In the following years until 2021, the increased use of standard components, the ban on expensive lightweight materials, improved safety measures and larger tyres ensured that the limit was raised step by step to 749 kilograms.

The next big step in the weight ladder was climbed in 2022 with the introduction of ground effect cars. Actually, a limit of 795 kilograms was planned for the start of the new aerodynamics era. But because only one team, Alfa Romeo, came close to this limit shortly before the start of the season, the FIA added another three kilograms at the last minute.

But no turnaround in 2023

After years of increase, a turnaround was finally to be initiated in 2023. The last published draft of the technical regulations, which were approved by the World Motor Sport Council at the end of June, provided for a diet of two kilogrammes - so from 798 kg it was to go down to 796 kg. Not much, but at least something, the drivers praised. At least it was going in the right direction.

But at the last meetings of the Technical Advisory Committee (TAC), in which the technical directors of the ten teams constantly discuss rule changes with representatives of the FIA, new figures were brought into play again and again. From the starting point of 796 kg, it initially went up to 799 kg via 797 kg. That would even have meant an increase in the minimum weight.

At the last meeting

In the last meeting in mid-January, the engineers agreed on a limit of 798 kilograms, which will now apply for the start of the season. So everything remains the same. It is not entirely clear why the original target could not be met. It is said that the new front tyres from Pirelli had increased somewhat in comparison to last year's product.