Mercedes W14

[Andi76]

I think the “zero-pod” is a bit of an illusion on the W14. The W14 clearly has much larger overall sidepod volume compared to the W13. Look at the mid-section. Zero pod is dead.

Look at the front section of both designs, the W14 is clear smaller in the front.

Is a sidepod only it's inlet?

The inlet is not smaller....from the front you can clearly see that it is larger. It reminds of the inlets of the Ferrari F310B or the Benetton B197.

I just can't help but project Ferrari style sidepods on this car. It just would seem to be the only logical sidepod style. The merc and ferrari concept both rely on sucking in the diffuser air in from the side so that would be the fitting solution.

...and Toto would probably rather eat dogfood for the entire '23 season than to succumb to the RB philisophy

Absolutely. Clearly Ferrari-Style bathtubes on top of the.... sidepod....

[mzivtins]

In Germany Andreas Schmidt reported that the W14 uses Red Bulls Trick from last year to lower the rear at high speeds. We all remember Red Bulls superior Topspeed in 2022. Andreas Schmidt from AMuS says that was because Red Bull used a trick to lower their rear at high speeds. Probably a collapsing rear suspension, something Newey started to use at McLaren in 1998 already. The word is that Mercedes found out how to it and copied it.

If its purely mechanical then what could be the solution? All f1 cars have dual rate suspension right? like you said from years ago, whats next, a third rate?

Mechanically its very easy to go from a lower rate to higher rate in one coil, but this sounds like it would be going from higher rate to lower rate, which is total weird because it happens at the highest speeds/mass

I hope its purely just really clever spring/damping setups, it would be annoying as hell if its some weird acentric rotation of an upright mount or chassis mount that move depending on conditions.

They should just stop this mess and go full hydraulic controlled suspension, it would solve all the bouncing issues and allow for sublime compliance over curbs and bumps, plus the FIA could standardise the control aspect by linking it closely with ECU, like a spec part

[Andi76]

In Germany Andreas Schmidt reported that the W14 uses Red Bulls Trick from last year to lower the rear at high speeds. We all remember Red Bulls superior Topspeed in 2022. Andreas Schmidt from AMuS says that was because Red Bull used a trick to lower their rear at high speeds. Probably a collapsing rear suspension, something Newey started to use at McLaren in 1998 already. The word is that Mercedes found out how to it and copied it.

If its purely mechanical then what could be the solution? All f1 cars have dual rate suspension right? like you said from years ago, whats next, a third rate?

Mechanically its very easy to go from a lower rate to higher rate in one coil, but this sounds like it would be going from higher rate to lower rate, which is total weird because it happens at the highest speeds/mass

I hope its purely just really clever spring/damping setups, it would be annoying as hell if its some weird acentric rotation of an upright mount or chassis mount that move depending on conditions.

They should just stop this mess and go full hydraulic controlled suspension, it would solve all the bouncing issues and allow for sublime compliance over curbs and bumps, plus the FIA could standardise the control aspect by linking it closely with ECU, like a spec part

To be honest - I have no idea. At Ferrari in the late 90's and early 00's phenomenal engineers like Ross, Rory and Marco were trying to figure out how to do this - but couldn't. Back then it was probably some special shape/geometry of the rocker, since the suspensions themselves are similar today, I think it's something like that again today.

[AR3-GP]

In Germany Andreas Schmidt reported that the W14 uses Red Bulls Trick from last year to lower the rear at high speeds. We all remember Red Bulls superior Topspeed in 2022. Andreas Schmidt from AMuS says that was because Red Bull used a trick to lower their rear at high speeds. Probably a collapsing rear suspension, something Newey started to use at McLaren in 1998 already. The word is that Mercedes found out how to it and copied it.

If its purely mechanical then what could be the solution? All f1 cars have dual rate suspension right? like you said from years ago, whats next, a third rate?

Mechanically its very easy to go from a lower rate to higher rate in one coil, but this sounds like it would be going from higher rate to lower rate, which is total weird because it happens at the highest speeds/mass

I hope its purely just really clever spring/damping setups, it would be annoying as hell if its some weird acentric rotation of an upright mount or chassis mount that move depending on conditions.

They should just stop this mess and go full hydraulic controlled suspension, it would solve all the bouncing issues and allow for sublime compliance over curbs and bumps, plus the FIA could standardise the control aspect by linking it closely with ECU, like a spec part

I don't want to trivialize the nature of such a contraption, but in an abstract sense, it's not that hard. It's likely related to some "over-center" kinematics.



A trivial example here, but once a certain displacement is exceeded, the resistance changes.

This kind of thing is already used in the MotoGP:
https://motomatters.com/analysis/2019/0 ... eshot.html

The device functions as follows: before the start of the race (or before a practice start), the rider uses their weight to compress the suspension, then twists the lever to engage the mechanism. The mechanism then locks the rear suspension in a lower position for the duration of the start. When the rider arrives at the first corner, and brakes hard before entering the turn. That hard braking causes the rear to lift, which in turn triggers the unlocking mechanism, which frees the device and returns the rear suspension to its normal operation.

In F1 the system will have to be entirely passive. The braking force at the rear wheels could unlock the suspension again. The implementation will be a bit more complex in a dual rear wheel F1 car, but the theory behind it and it's mechanical nature is likely all the same.

[zibby43]

there seems to be a massive disconnect between forum members here and team personnel in terms of linking side pod inlet design with significant performance implications, generally.

The latter believe it’s trivial. Here, it’s focused on more than critical areas such as the FW, floor, underfloor, diffuser, etc.

I find that interesting.

Why are they revising it if it's trivial and/or otherwise un-noteworthy. Of course it's important.

This would be the 4th iteration of the Mercedes sidepod that we will see after the revisions

W13 A-spec
W13 B-spec
W14 Launch Spec
W14 revisions.

Why does this supposedly "trivial" part keep getting revised? There have now been more sidepods than front wings...Why are they wasting development resource on this trivial, inconsequential side pod?

Anyone downplaying the sidepods only needs to look at the development of the Mercedes sidepod. Why are they fussing with it, if doesn't matter?

Have you looked at the upgrades on many of the other cars in the last year? Sidepods seem quite important. Don't let anyone fool you into thinking otherwise. Of course they are going to downplay it because being wrong embarrasses them. Everyone keeps trying to pretend Mercedes "didn't get it wrong", despite them having nothing to suggest they got anything right last year.

Refinement is not the same as concept. I expect every single piece of bodywork on the car to be updated at some point in the season.

A sidepod does not have the pitch and yaw sensitivity, nor the structural considerations of a front wing.

Exactly. I’m talking about the general design choice, not how it’s executed and/or refined.

Massive difference.

[Henk_v]

Unless those big aluminium beams that support the floor in that area are somehow also linked to the suspension cams...

In that way a critical amount of floor suction can actuate a device that lowers te rear suspension and raises the rear floor

[bucker]

Floors once


I would say zero floor instead of zero pod.

[PhillipM]

If its purely mechanical then what could be the solution? All f1 cars have dual rate suspension right? like you said from years ago, whats next, a third rate?

Mechanically its very easy to go from a lower rate to higher rate in one coil, but this sounds like it would be going from higher rate to lower rate, which is total weird because it happens at the highest speeds/mass

It's not weird at all, F1 cars run rockers, you can get basically any transition from low to high, high to low, low to high to low, progressive, digressive, etc, you can think of just with geometery changes to the rockers.

Also going from high rate to low rate is easy, I have that on the rear of my racer as an option, to give a stiffer rear on corner entry and a softer rear on corner exit, all with just a standard coilover and dual springs.

[Venturiation]

From AMUS

Of course, auto motor und sport also asked Russell the crucial question as to whether the old bouncing problems reappeared on the first run. Surprisingly, the pilot didn't want to go into detail about that. With the words: "We'll see about that in the next week," he dodged the question briefly and succinctly. Great confidence sounds different.

It was also somewhat surprising that Mercedes only published two driving pictures of the route (see gallery). And both show the new car from the front. Otherwise there were only a handful of photos from the presentation and a few computer renderings that were not very detailed. It almost seems as if Mercedes doesn't want to reveal all the cards yet.

[AR3-GP]

If its purely mechanical then what could be the solution? All f1 cars have dual rate suspension right? like you said from years ago, whats next, a third rate?

Mechanically its very easy to go from a lower rate to higher rate in one coil, but this sounds like it would be going from higher rate to lower rate, which is total weird because it happens at the highest speeds/mass

It's not weird at all, F1 cars run rockers, you can get basically any transition from low to high, high to low, low to high to low, progressive, digressive, etc, you can think of just with geometery changes to the rockers.

Also going from high rate to low rate is easy, I have that on the rear of my racer as an option, to give a stiffer rear on corner entry and a softer rear on corner exit, all with just a standard coilover and dual springs.

100% . It is rather simple with multi-link kinematics, but like anything, it requires people and money to engineer it. With so many projects on different parts of the car and finite budgets, not everyone started with something like this.

[PhillipM]

I don't see why not, it's barely any more development time than the initial suspension work you're doing anyway, in terms of car and labour budget it's nothing. Hell I designed my high>low setup in less than an hour in the workshop.

[chrisc90]

I don't see why not, it's barely any more development time than the initial suspension work you're doing anyway, in terms of car and labour budget it's nothing. Hell I designed my high>low setup in less than an hour in the workshop.

How did you do it?

[ringo]

I think the “zero-pod” is a bit of an illusion on the W14. The W14 clearly has much larger overall sidepod volume compared to the W13. Look at the mid-section. Zero pod is dead.

No. It has the same or less volume. The W13 sidepod volume is spread out on the floor. towards the front of the tub.
From the top view, you will notice how much narrower the W14 pods are. From the front it looks wider because what was on the floor was repositioned. But along the waist the W14 is actually smaller in volume.
The key difference is avoiding the downward sloping shoulders. Not good for aero.

[PhillipM]

I don't see why not, it's barely any more development time than the initial suspension work you're doing anyway, in terms of car and labour budget it's nothing. Hell I designed my high>low setup in less than an hour in the workshop.

How did you do it?

Same calculations you make for displacement and ride height for any setup, work out the load I wanted it to switch at, and then simply flipped the travel limiter for the slider to the other side on the damper body and preloaded the spring against it.
That way you run on one spring until you hit your load target and then it flips to two springs in series, rather than vice versa.

[Venturiation]

they say the car aero really doesn't make sense
it was already the car with the lowest and downforce and now it's worse
and that it's disappointed , they were expecting a bigger change since mercedes had 1 year making the W14