Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

[djones]

They might get to see it, but only in the same way the competition gets to see a new wing when it's used etc.

It's about getting the jump on people and accepting that others will copy at some point if it's good. Keep the new ideas coming and you still stay ahead overall.

[SmallSoldier]

Interesting article in regards to Mercedes intercooler (in Japanese):

https://f1-motorsports-gp.com/mer/2022- ... c-re-vlim/

[johnny comelately]

Interesting article in regards to Mercedes intercooler (in Japanese):

https://f1-motorsports-gp.com/mer/2022- ... c-re-vlim/

https://i.imgur.com/Oh43HFN.jpg

Very good, thank you for this
It would be interesting to know the tiny detail of that to see how they do not lose too much flow/pressure

[godlameroso]

Interesting article in regards to Mercedes intercooler (in Japanese):

https://f1-motorsports-gp.com/mer/2022- ... c-re-vlim/

https://i.imgur.com/Oh43HFN.jpg

Very good, thank you for this
It would be interesting to know the tiny detail of that to see how they do not lose too much flow/pressure

That has mostly to do with the end tanks than the actual core itself(losing flow). Pressure is lost because the density of the hotter compressed air increases as its cooled, that aspect is unavoidable, but it's one of those good problems.

[godlameroso]

Not sure where to post this, but the current conversation here about reliability updates and how that can change performance seems to fit it well:

https://www.planetf1.com/news/renault-e ... ower-unit/

Renault’s power unit chief has predicted the FIA will be stricter on upgrades in the future after “70 requests” from different manufacturers in 2022.

“I think the process in 2022 with the FIA ​​​​and the other manufacturers was quite good. At least it was transparent, so everyone knew about each other’s requests, and that’s very good,” he said, as per Motorsport-Total.com.

“In 2022 it was quite tolerant. I think that was quite normal because everyone was affected by reliability issues. I think we had 30, 40, 50, 60, 70 requests from different manufacturers, so everyone was affected by this type of problem.”

Famin, who used to work at the FIA, did however, expect the sport’s governing body to be more strict as the seasons go on.

“I expect the FIA ​​to be a bit stricter in the future, but I don’t have any information,” the Renault man said.

“What is a pure reliability issue? That’s a question we can’t answer because the reliability issue often hides a potential performance gain.

“If you have a problem with the water pump, like we had in 2022, it’s clearly a pure reliability problem: there’s no point in using a different water pump.

“But if you have to change the material of the piston rings to have something stronger, to have more power, where is the limit? It’s not obvious.”

Quotes from Bruno Farmin (alpine technical director I believe)

Improving a water pump to be more efficient means fewer parasitic losses. You make the oil pump and the water pump more efficient and you just gained a quarter of a horsepower just from fewer parasitic losses. And you wonder why teams still find 10hp over the winter with frozen engines.

[etusch]

Not sure where to post this, but the current conversation here about reliability updates and how that can change performance seems to fit it well:

https://www.planetf1.com/news/renault-e ... ower-unit/

Renault’s power unit chief has predicted the FIA will be stricter on upgrades in the future after “70 requests” from different manufacturers in 2022.

“I think the process in 2022 with the FIA ​​​​and the other manufacturers was quite good. At least it was transparent, so everyone knew about each other’s requests, and that’s very good,” he said, as per Motorsport-Total.com.

“In 2022 it was quite tolerant. I think that was quite normal because everyone was affected by reliability issues. I think we had 30, 40, 50, 60, 70 requests from different manufacturers, so everyone was affected by this type of problem.”

Famin, who used to work at the FIA, did however, expect the sport’s governing body to be more strict as the seasons go on.

“I expect the FIA ​​to be a bit stricter in the future, but I don’t have any information,” the Renault man said.

“What is a pure reliability issue? That’s a question we can’t answer because the reliability issue often hides a potential performance gain.

“If you have a problem with the water pump, like we had in 2022, it’s clearly a pure reliability problem: there’s no point in using a different water pump.

“But if you have to change the material of the piston rings to have something stronger, to have more power, where is the limit? It’s not obvious.”

Quotes from Bruno Farmin (alpine technical director I believe)

Improving a water pump to be more efficient means fewer parasitic losses. You make the oil pump and the water pump more efficient and you just gained a quarter of a horsepower just from fewer parasitic losses. And you wonder why teams still find 10hp over the winter with frozen engines.

When you consider that these parts are already most advanced, they can be improved but I don't think that much in one shot. And I think what you had said is purely performance update.

[gruntguru]

Interesting article in regards to Mercedes intercooler (in Japanese):

https://f1-motorsports-gp.com/mer/2022- ... c-re-vlim/

https://i.imgur.com/Oh43HFN.jpg

Very good, thank you for this
It would be interesting to know the tiny detail of that to see how they do not lose too much flow/pressure

. . . Pressure is lost because the density of the hotter compressed air increases as its cooled . . .

No. Any pressure drop occurs purely as a result of flow restriction. No restriction - no pressure loss.

[AR3-GP]

Very good, thank you for this
It would be interesting to know the tiny detail of that to see how they do not lose too much flow/pressure

. . . Pressure is lost because the density of the hotter compressed air increases as its cooled . . .

No. Any pressure drop occurs purely as a result of flow restriction. No restriction - no pressure loss.

There is a pressure drop associated with both the flow restriction and temperature drop (while this is not a perfectly ideal system, the ideal gas law roughly illustrates the latter point).

The "work around" is that the control system monitors the pressure in the intake, after the intercooler. So whatever intake pressure you want can be maintained by way of the frenetic actions of the turbo, MGU-H, and waste gate up to the limit of the energy available in the exhaust gas and MGU-H.

[saviour stivala]

Yes exactly. And with the present system (ERS) where the exhaust gas is not enough, the MGU-H kicks in and compensates.

[saviour stivala]

Mercedes FIA granted reliability upgrades for this season should be revested and most probably banned by the FIA. ''Hywel Thomas:- ''The mindset I've seen and the one WE DESCUSSED has been about relentless development'' ''Bruno Famin:- '' components that haven't failed but are being replaced under the guise of improved reliability are clearly performance oriented and so should therefore be banned by the FIA''.

[johnny comelately]

Yea well anyways getting back to minutae design that achieves a fair temp drop without too much pressure/flow drop in such a small part is intriguing. assuming that the air flow around and through the fins have the same challenges as the aero gurus go on about on the large scale. This means there must be a lot of focus on the detail shapes to not have drag. The tradeoff between laminar and turbulent flow must be challenging, guessing that laminar has a better heat exchange. And then there is the speed of flow, the smaller the part the higher the speed??

[etusch]

Yes exactly. And with the present system (ERS) where the exhaust gas is not enough, the MGU-H kicks in and compensates.

When mgu-h kicks in, it consumes battery power. You had kept pressure but in this time you lost in battery. what compensate this ?

[saviour stivala]

Harvesting, either by the 'K' or by the 'H' itself. ES power can also be shared by both 'K' and 'H' at the same time such as when in free-load -mode.

[gruntguru]

. . . Pressure is lost because the density of the hotter compressed air increases as its cooled . . .

No. Any pressure drop occurs purely as a result of flow restriction. No restriction - no pressure loss.

There is a pressure drop associated with both the flow restriction and temperature drop (while this is not a perfectly ideal system, the ideal gas law roughly illustrates the latter point).

The "work around" is that the control system monitors the pressure in the intake, after the intercooler. So whatever intake pressure you want can be maintained by way of the frenetic actions of the turbo, MGU-H, and waste gate up to the limit of the energy available in the exhaust gas and MGU-H.

The ideal gas law sets a relationship between pressure, temperature and density.

Flow in a large, well-designed duct will not see any change in pressure no matter how much cooling takes place. In this case the only change as temperature reduces, is an increase in density.

[PlatinumZealot]

Very good, thank you for this
It would be interesting to know the tiny detail of that to see how they do not lose too much flow/pressure

. . . Pressure is lost because the density of the hotter compressed air increases as its cooled . . .

No. Any pressure drop occurs purely as a result of flow restriction. No restriction - no pressure loss.

True. There is no device extracting/adding work from/to the gas so in a heat exchanger, pressure loss will be as a result of frictional losses only. I think the system is also a flowing system... Not quasi-static... So again i think this is correct.