2023 Aston Martin | Aramco | Cognizant F1 Team

[Spoutnik]

Translation
Julien Febreau (French TV commentators with reliable sources) : "Nowadays, everybody in the paddock is saying "the team to watch for the years to come is AM""

[Mansell89]

Do you really think being customer engine is that limiting?

I know originally when these hybrids came out that there appeared to be issues in customers getting access to all maps and performance but didn’t they get regulated against in the end? (FIA)

[PlatinumZealot]

It's a myth. RedBull were faster than Renault with the same engine.. And even faster than Ferrari too with their works status.
Customer engine is an escuse by teams that can't figure out championship winning chassis

[snajam]

There's no proof, RB would've beaten merc with a merc engine 2022. Having a merc engine in the back would have had little effect of their aero stability or tire management, I'd say they might have been better given that merc allows for better packaging.

In the initial hybrid years yes the concepts and geometries were changing and the works team always had the advantage of either knowing which direction PU geometry was going a few months before hand or driving it in a certain direction (mcl 2015, 16, 17 ). But as I understand now the changes on the PU are not as radical. To throw customer teams off in the middle of a development cycle. Besides we've seen how well the mcl and amr are packaged this season. Dan Fallows says it's not a hindering them to be a customer and reach the top. Other teams in the midfield have rather overused that excuse who stay where they are.

[KimiRai]

I'd say it is a hindrance, we know Mercedes takes for themselves the engines that give the best numbers, but it's not the end of the world that people make it to be. We've seen McLaren vs Mercedes in the early years, McLaren and RedBull vs Renault... even Sauber vs Ferrari in some races in 2012.

[AR3-GP]

There was a story late last season where it was revealed that Alonso had requested that AM take an extra power unit from Mercedes and apparently Mercedes bulked at the idea since they have a set capacity of PUs they can supply and maintain.

Keep mind mind Mercedes didn't have any problem using 5-6 PUs per car in 2021, while the customer teams could only use 3-4 PUs.

[diffuser]

It's a myth. RedBull were faster than Renault with the same engine.. And even faster than Ferrari too with their works status.
Customer engine is an escuse by teams that can't figure out championship winning chassis

Thank you. So tired of hearing that sob song.

[saviour stivala]

It is called ''selective hearing'' what one would like to hear.

[EJ22B]

There's no proof, RB would've beaten merc with a merc engine 2022. Having a merc engine in the back would have had little effect of their aero stability or tire management, I'd say they might have been better given that merc allows for better packaging.

Since 2021, Honda has a way more compact power unit than Merc. The Honda valve cover is a very compact design compared to Merc and the other power units. The Honda intake manifold sits slanted in the V of the engine whereas the merc intake manifold sits straight and the bodywork has to be wrapped around it.

[delsando53]

There was a story late last season where it was revealed that Alonso had requested that AM take an extra power unit from Mercedes and apparently Mercedes bulked at the idea since they have a set capacity of PUs they can supply and maintain.

Keep mind mind Mercedes didn't have any problem using 5-6 PUs per car in 2021, while the customer teams could only use 3-4 PUs.

Do customer teams have to ability to be assured what horsepower they are garunteed they're getting with their own inhouse dyno or independant testing?

[f1jcw]

I'd say it is a hindrance, we know Mercedes takes for themselves the engines that give the best numbers, but it's not the end of the world that people make it to be. We've seen McLaren vs Mercedes in the early years, McLaren and RedBull vs Renault... even Sauber vs Ferrari in some races in 2012.

We know?

No, I didn’t know, not ever seen it written anyway. I take it "we knows" means "YOU presume"

[Big Tea]

Having your own engine means you have that engine. Being a customer means you can switch if you do not like it (well the possibility is there anyway, if they want to supply you is another thing)

[AR3-GP]

There was a story late last season where it was revealed that Alonso had requested that AM take an extra power unit from Mercedes and apparently Mercedes bulked at the idea since they have a set capacity of PUs they can supply and maintain.

Keep mind mind Mercedes didn't have any problem using 5-6 PUs per car in 2021, while the customer teams could only use 3-4 PUs.

Do customer teams have to ability to be assured what horsepower they are garunteed they're getting with their own inhouse dyno or independant testing?

No two engines are exactly the same, but I'm sure Mercedes does the best they can to ensure consistency.

[diffuser]

There was a story late last season where it was revealed that Alonso had requested that AM take an extra power unit from Mercedes and apparently Mercedes bulked at the idea since they have a set capacity of PUs they can supply and maintain.

Keep mind mind Mercedes didn't have any problem using 5-6 PUs per car in 2021, while the customer teams could only use 3-4 PUs.

Do customer teams have to ability to be assured what horsepower they are garunteed they're getting with their own inhouse dyno or independant testing?

No two engines are exactly the same, but I'm sure Mercedes does the best they can to ensure consistency.

Engine maps choices and software have to be identical to the manufacturer. They are verified by FIA. They also have the choice to run the manufacturers fuel and lubricants. I doudt they put brand new PUs on the dyno before Dowling them out.

Remember, the base PU contract is for the number of PUs that would normally get through a year. You don't get Xtra PUs for free unless their is a PU failure. So an Xtra PU is gonna cost in excess of 2 million(don't remember if that is pound, Euros or Dollars). Also, there is a limit to Merc's PU production. They need to build 8 PUs for all 4 teams just for testing. Certainly 4 will get used but their could be more. Then they need 8 PU total for the first races with I presume 4-8 more as backup in case something goes wrong(accidents and what not). After they've produced PUs for the first round of races, they keep producing PUs for the next set of races. If you had to supply all 4 teams with 8 PUs upfront, that would be the rat in the snakes tummy, which is why Merc balked at that. If failures occur, you need to go back an rework all those already produced PUs (once you've found the source of the problem).

[AR3-GP]

Do customer teams have to ability to be assured what horsepower they are garunteed they're getting with their own inhouse dyno or independant testing?

No two engines are exactly the same, but I'm sure Mercedes does the best they can to ensure consistency.

Engine maps choices and software have to be identical to the manufacturer. They are verified by FIA. They also have the choice to run the manufacturers fuel and lubricants. I doudt they put brand new PUs on the dyno before Dowling them out.

I was referring to the hardware. Even when software is the same, no two engines will ever perform exactly the same.

Slight differences due to manufacturing tolerances (even very good ones), can lead to more or less friction between the rotating components like the crankshaft and the turbo. These can lead to very small differences in power levels. These differences are very small however and I'm sure Mercedes does a blind selection when they are allocating the PUs as proof of this.

With that said, it doesn't mean somebody can't get a "lame" PU like the one Lando Norris got at the beginning of last year which had constant issues in the opening rounds.

Furthermore, in some years like 2022, the Mercedes PUs had excessive wear issues and this would vary slightly betwen the different teams. From what I read at the time, the customer teams were limited to 4 PUs unlike the factory team for "supply" limitation reasons.

There can be perfectly innocuous reasons for a customer team to be put at a disadvantage to the factory team including what we saw in 2022, where HPP wouldn't have been able to give 4 different teams, 5-6 PUs per driver.