Vodaphone McLaren Mercedes MP4-24

[ISLAMATRON]

speed traps have meant very little of late, I have seen Force India regularly dominating those numbers this year... hasnt brought them any points.

No doubt the Benz lump is a good one, but its better used in a better balanced BGP, even if JB doesnt have the best speed trap numbers.

[Shaddock]

The KERs helps down the straights with top speeds, but the McLaren was also poor under braking (lack of rear downforce maybe) in Turkey, and it was also set up very stiffly.

McLaren haven't cracked this aero issue since the car was launched, and they covered it in green paint in testing. Until they understand what's gone wrong this year, how can you build next years car with any confidence that its not going to inherit this years bad aero traits.

Honda had two years in the wilderness, with the same design team spending $400m a year producing differently designed cars that badly underperformed in 07 & 08.

It wasn't until Brawn arrived with his experience of being a designer and TD that the same group of people at Brackley were able to come up with a winning car straight from the drawing board. I think McLaren are going to need fresh blood in the design team or suffer the fate of Honda, and to some extent Renault, who have failed to recapture their glory years when they used Michelins.

[ISLAMATRON]

McLaren has alot of talant because of the "spygate" and "liegate"

[Shaddock]

McLaren has alot of talant because of the "spygate" and "liegate"

I think Mike Coughlan was the last big name to leave from the design team. The rest of the heads of Dept (Paddy Lowe, Simon Lacey etc) have been there since the quick MP4/20 and know how to develop an already winning/fast concept.

[ISLAMATRON]

What exactly were Dave Ryan's... sporting director, responsibilities on the team? other than lying when there was no reason to?

[vasia]

McLaren making excuses again, this time from Whitmarsh:

"We knew it was going to be a tough weekend and so I think also when you don't' qualify well, you look at Rubens (Barrichello's) performance in a vastly superior car, you cannot make progress and it is very, very difficult to recover. So, if you are back there in qualifying then there is little you can do. Our drivers drove a solid race but you can't rescue yourself."

Except he fails to mention that Rubens lost 7th gear and made some contact with others and that is why he struggled to move up the field. Glock qualified down the grid but still made progress and finished in the points. Hamilton has already admitted this is a dog of a car, that it should be scrapped, and that they should focus on next year. Whitmarsh though still will not come out and say the MP4-24 is a bad car.

As I mentioned earlier, I think Whitmarsh won't do it out of pride. I think he's fearful of team morale dropping. I also think out of pride they will continue to put too much resources into the MP4-24 for the rest of the season. Likely in his mind and others at McLaren, focusing on next year's car now is equivalent to throwing in the towel.

[ISLAMATRON]

Did you not read the hole article?
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/75947

"It is not in our DNA – we will be pushing hard to see how we can improve the car. We are realistic, we are not making any predictions that we are going to be back there on the podium any time soon, but we are going to keep pushing and learning what we can from this car and making sure that we apply adequate resource to next year's car to make sure we are competitive."

No excuses from Whitmarsh(other than the same one Ferrari has used which is the pushing from last year excuse, a valid 1 in my eyes), just good team leadership in the face of hardships.

And with the ongoing FOTA antics who knows what the MP25 should be designed to what rules.

[Shaddock]

What exactly were Dave Ryan's... sporting director, responsibilities on the team? other than lying when there was no reason to?

I think it's is equivalent to the old team manager role. Dave Ryan has taken over this position.

[ISLAMATRON]

What exactly were Dave Ryan's... sporting director, responsibilities on the team? other than lying when there was no reason to?

I think it's is equivalent to the old team manager role. Dave Ryan has taken over this position.

Huh? wasnt he fired? Prety sure he was, after Austrailia

[Shaddock]

What exactly were Dave Ryan's... sporting director, responsibilities on the team? other than lying when there was no reason to?

I think it's is equivalent to the old team manager role. Dave Ryan has taken over this position.

Huh? wasnt he fired? Prety sure he was, after Austrailia

He was I meant to type 'Jonathan Neale' who has taken over some of Ryan's responsibilites, I'm not sure if this positon even exists in the post Ron world. That will teach me for doing two things a once :^o

[axle]

It wasn't until Brawn arrived with his experience of being a designer and TD that the same group of people at Brackley were able to come up with a winning car straight from the drawing board. I think McLaren are going to need fresh blood in the design team or suffer the fate of Honda, and to some extent Renault, who have failed to recapture their glory years when they used Michelins.

Good grief, why do so many always say he designed the car!?
He is an engineer if anything, not a designer. He understands what fundementally makes a good F1 car and what to concentrate on, he knows who should be focussing on those areas.

But he doesn't design the car!!! Never has, never will.

[Shaddock]

It wasn't until Brawn arrived with his experience of being a designer and TD that the same group of people at Brackley were able to come up with a winning car straight from the drawing board. I think McLaren are going to need fresh blood in the design team or suffer the fate of Honda, and to some extent Renault, who have failed to recapture their glory years when they used Michelins.

Good grief, why do so many always say he designed the car!?
He is an engineer if anything, not a designer. He understands what fundementally makes a good F1 car and what to concentrate on, he knows who should be focussing on those areas.

But he doesn't design the car!!! Never has, never will.

He no longer designs cars, but he has in the past!

He worked as a designer at Arrows and on Jaguar Sportscars in the past; it’s this experience in now leading the Brawn team to make the right strategic decisions on the cars design.

I’m not taking about the shape/design of the front wing end plates etc, but the big picture, in the cars design, weight distribution, keel types, push rod, pull rods, wheelbase.

[Richard]

It wasn't until Brawn arrived ...

But he doesn't design the car!!! Never has, never will.

He no longer designs cars, but he has in the past!

He worked as a designer ...

It's about using people with an engineering background to manage and prioritise the process. They have enough understanding of the physics and practicalities of manufacturing/maintaining to assess proposals made by the engineering design teams.

In that context, Mr Whitmarsh is more than qualified ...

Whitmarsh graduated from university with a degree in Mechanical Engineering in 1980, and started work at British Aerospace (now BAE Systems) as a structural analysis engineer at its Hamble-le-Rice facility. He was promoted to an advanced composite structures research and development role and transferred to BAe's Weybridge facility. In 1988 he was promoted to the rank of Manufacturing Director and was put in charge of Hawk and Harrier airframe production. He left to join McLaren as Head of Operations in 1989.

I'd say the problem is one or two levels below Whitmarsh/Brawn. It's about who they select to head up each design team.

[adam2007]

how far is the car of the pace, 0.5? more?

[Shaddock]

Whitmarsh graduated from university with a degree in Mechanical Engineering in 1980, and started work at British Aerospace (now BAE Systems) as a structural analysis engineer at its Hamble-le-Rice facility. He was promoted to an advanced composite structures research and development role and transferred to BAe's Weybridge facility. In 1988 he was promoted to the rank of Manufacturing Director and was put in charge of Hawk and Harrier airframe production. He left to join McLaren as Head of Operations in 1989.

I'd say the problem is one or two levels below Whitmarsh/Brawn. It's about who they select to head up each design team.

I'm going to disagree,

the McLaren team haven't changed all that much, Paddy Lowe was appointed Engineering Director in 05, Neil Oatley has been there since 84, and there aero guy Simon Lacey has been there since 06. The Mclarens have been fast since 2005, fragile maybe, but they have had race pace.

The current car has aero issues, but it's the same guy who heads up of aero as in previous years winning cars. BrawnGP have the same aero guy who came up with last years pig of a car, although they do have a newish deputy TD in Joerg Zander.

Honda took a nose dive and developed a 'brick' when they sacked Willis and made a motorcycle engineer TD.