2023 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

This forum contains threads to discuss teams themselves. Anything not technical about the cars, including restructuring, performances etc belongs here.
Andi76
Andi76
431
Joined: 03 Feb 2021, 20:19

Re: 2023 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post

AR3-GP wrote:
01 Mar 2023, 02:57
JPBD1990 wrote:
01 Mar 2023, 02:32


1) Ferrari went faster in testing this year than last year. While the tyres are new and accounted for much of this (probably), the margin of difference between the F1-75 and the SF-23 is greater than that of the RB18-19 and the W13-14.
This could simply be because Ferrari sandbagged more than anyone in 2022. Remember how everyone thought RB would be on pole and win in Bahrain last year or it could be because RB/Merc sandbagged more this year.

We have no idea.
Well, I would like to say several things about this. Of course, we can only speculate here, but the teams themselves know exactly how they have to assess the competition. There's a lot of effort being put into this with, as I think most people will know, GPS data, sound measurements etc. What stands out here is that Red Bull and Ferrari are very relaxed. At Mercedes it looks a little bit different. Yesterday I had a conversation with someone from Ferrari and I can only say that they are very satisfied and relaxed. This already shows that they are very sure to have a good car. He told me that most of the time they had lot of fuel on board all the time and they never actually made a real qualifying run. So even when they did their "faster" times, they still had more fuel on board than they would usually have. He also told me that they never looked for laptimes, not even with the faster times they did, it was all part of a well planed and organised programm and approach and you could feel the confidence when he said that. So correlation is definetely perfect and the car works just the way you want it to. And as I said - the teams know relatively well how good or how bad the competition is. So I expect Red Bull to be in front, but I also expect the SF-23 to be not far behind and to be the car with the greater development potential. However, this is where what really worries me comes into play, namely the development over the course of the season. Many people make fun of the fact that Ferrari never manages to develop the car as well as the competition during the season. But of course there's a reason for that. Ferrari used to be by far the best team here, back in the Schumacher era. The reason back then was that Ross Brawn, Rory Byrne, Jean Todt and Michael Schumacher really ran the race team. Ross Brawn had full technical responsibility and had this written into his contract. Of course, that didn't stop di Montezemolo from trying to exert influence here, as he had done all the years before and after that era. However, he ran into a wall, because Ross Brawn made it clear that he would not tolerate influencing his employees and ordering anything technical. Unlike the pre-Schumacher era and the post-Schumacher era, however, there was now a united front of race director, technical director, chief designer and number one driver who were completely loyal to each other and in complete agreement. The racing department is run by them, they are the professionals and not the president. And should the president not want or accept that, especially since the TD had even been contractually assured of that, as well as the chief designer, then they would leave, because that was not what had been agreed. So di Montezemolo was deprived of any influence concerning the racing team and the engineers could go about their work quietly and undisturbed, without the Ferrari or FIAT bosses messing up any technical things or development plans. And above all according to plan and in one direction. After the 2007 car that Brawn/Byrne and Schumacher were still developing was mostly finished, this ended and Brawn/Byrne and Schumacher left Ferrari. There came, as today, technical extremely capable people in their place, but people who no longer had the power to block out the disruptive influences and changes of direction of the bosses. An engineer could either do what the bosses wanted, or do what he thought was technically best, but that left him vulnerable. This is also the reason why some excellent engineers left Ferrari or others were fired after they argued with the bosses after failures regarding their interference that negatively affected the team technically.

This has not changed at Ferrari until today and this is the reason why Ferrari is usually worse than the competition in terms of development during the season. I always thought Binotto had at least managed to bring about an improvement in this respect. However, yesterday I had to learn that Binotto complained that he "can't do what I want". His "Pharaoh" system(which I will not go into) at least managed to protect certain other engineers, but he still couldn't prevent the interference of Elkann and Vigna. And I don't think Vasseur will be able to do that either, because he doesn't have Brawn, Byrne and Schumacher, and neither does Binotto.

As long as the bosses at Ferrari always interfere, it will be difficult for Ferrari to become world champion. History shows quite clearly the contrasts - in the Schumacher era, when this influence was locked out, Ferrari was able to reach its potential. In the era before and after Schumacher, you can see the flip side. This is Ferrari's real problem, and unfortunately it hasn't been eliminated.

Still, I think there is some hope. I think, even if this is my personal opinion or conclusion from certain things I've experienced, that Binotto has sacrificed himself in a way. After all, there was a huge falling out between him and the Ferrari bosses. I believe that Binotto (who has always said that 2023 will be the year in which Ferrari fights for the title and 2022 will still be a "development year") finally got his way, which cost him the same. He stopped the development early, concentrated the resources on 2023 and it was developed where the engineers thought it was best and not the bosses. Something else that gives hope is that Rory Byrne can still influence the design and they listen to him and he can steer it somewhat. Even though his influence is limited as a consultant and from Thailand, of course. The next thing is to maybe "let Vasseur do it" for now and hold back.

If you consider that everyone at Ferrari seems very relaxed and confident, this could ideally lead to a very good car with a lot of potential that has a fixed development plan in which, for the first time in many years, the bosses are not constantly interfering. Finally they have to realize the obvious - that they are the ones responsible for the "failures" of the last 15 years and that a F1 team has to work calmly and according to a plan in one direction and that these are the specialists who know what to do. I think the car itself is good. At least the confidence of the engineers points very much to that. Everything else depends on how Elkann and Vigna behave and whether the Ferrari bosses stay out of the F1 team for the first time since 2007 and let the people there do their work undisturbed. 2023 will be a decisive year for Ferrari in this respect.

Sorry, that was a bit much, but I think something like that has to be mentioned. Finally, I would like to say again that I have never experienced such confidence at Ferrari. And since the F1 teams usually know exactly where the competition stands, I think Ferrari is well prepared. At the latest when the first updates will come in the second or third race. But the car should already not be too far away from the Red Bull. Of course, this is a purely subjective assessment and I can be wrong, but it the impression of the Ferrari people conveys this quite clearly.
Last edited by Andi76 on 01 Mar 2023, 14:56, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
organic
1055
Joined: 08 Jan 2022, 02:24
Location: Cambridge, UK

Re: 2023 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post

Xyz22 wrote:
01 Mar 2023, 14:31
Charles spoke a bit about the car in the latest episode of beyond the grid.
The episode was recorded after the first day of testing. He said that they made a lot of tests and the car behaved as they expected according to simulation sessions done at the factory.
Nothing new. Day 1 seemed to be their best day in terms of how the drivers reacted afterwards

Xyz22
Xyz22
123
Joined: 16 Feb 2022, 20:05

Re: 2023 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post

organic wrote:
01 Mar 2023, 14:38
Xyz22 wrote:
01 Mar 2023, 14:31
Charles spoke a bit about the car in the latest episode of beyond the grid.
The episode was recorded after the first day of testing. He said that they made a lot of tests and the car behaved as they expected according to simulation sessions done at the factory.
Nothing new. Day 1 seemed to be their best day in terms of how the drivers reacted afterwards
He also spoke about last year issues.
He said that there was not a major tyre deg problem, but they struggled a lot in the second part of season because the car was simply too slow. They had to push close to the limit to keep up with RB and thus they couldn't bring the tyre up to temperature in an optimal way, for instance.
Last edited by Xyz22 on 01 Mar 2023, 15:13, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
Vanja #66
1572
Joined: 19 Mar 2012, 16:38

Re: 2023 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post

Andi76 wrote:
01 Mar 2023, 14:38
Well, I would like to say several things about this. Of course, we can only speculate here, but the teams themselves know exactly how they have to assess the competition.
Thanks for this mega post, wonderful insight! :D

Xyz22 wrote:
01 Mar 2023, 14:51
He also spoke about last year issues.
He said that there was not major tyre deg problem, but they struggled a lot in the second part of season because the car was simply too slow. They had to push close to the limit to keep up with RB and thus they could bring the tyre up to temperature in an optimal way, for instance.
Some of us kept saying this all year. Wrong setup in Imola and wrong wing choice in Miami set that particular misinterpretation in stone and was impossible to overthrow it due to massive brainwashing by "pundits" and journos... After TD39 (Spa) Ferrari was lacking pace and had some occasional setup issues, being forced to keep the car in a setup window it was not made for.
AeroGimli.x

And they call it a stall. A STALL!

#DwarvesAreNaturalSprinters
#BlessYouLaddie

Xyz22
Xyz22
123
Joined: 16 Feb 2022, 20:05

Re: 2023 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post

Charles also touched on the comparison with Sainz saying they need very different things balance wise to be competitive, confirming something we knew pretty much already.

Vasseur on the upcoming race:

Image

bagajohny
bagajohny
4
Joined: 01 Jul 2021, 08:58

Re: 2023 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post

AR3-GP wrote:
01 Mar 2023, 03:22
JPower wrote:
01 Mar 2023, 01:46
AR3-GP wrote:
01 Mar 2023, 01:30


Okay. I'll take your word for it. I didn't look at his other content, but this post in particular is dangerously misleading. Like comparing apples to oranges with no context and calling it good. The post offers absolutely zero insight into how much better the SF23 is than the SF-75 because there is no basis to assume the laps are like for like or anything close to.
Didn't say anything in that post about the car being better, just said it was different and that the RW made the comparison difficult.
We don't even know if it's truly "different" because again we have no context to say the laps were like for like.

The best time for this kind of post is comparing Q3 from year to year.

If the twitter guy wanted to provide something that would have been insightful, it would make more sense to take the best lap from 2022 Bahrain qualifying, and compare that to the best pre-season lap. Because then you have some great context for comparison of the minimum improvement of the SF23.

I just took a few minutes to put that analysis together, and it supports the improvements of Ferrari more concretely:

In this we compare Sainz's pre-season test lap with more than 20kg of fuel and low engine mode, to a 2022 Q3 lap of sainz with low fuel and max power (at the time). What you see is more interesting. Much more Straightline speed. +7kmh/h on the main straight. + 11km/h on the back straight, again with more fuel and less engine power on the '23 pre-season lap than in 2022. We also see that the overfueled SF-23 is carrying 7-8km/h more speed through Turn 11 and Turn 13 during pre-season this year, than a balls to the walls qualy lap from last year on low fuel. (Tire tends to have a bigger effect in the lower speed corners than higher speed corners like T11 and T13).

What does this mean? When Ferrari turn up the power and empty the fuel tank, these deltas will grow even larger.
https://i.postimg.cc/664KQPdH/image.png
Actually this comparison makes much more sense to me as well. Thank you for posting this. This gives us much better idea even if it is a loose comparison.

jambuka
jambuka
28
Joined: 24 Feb 2023, 07:52

Re: 2023 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post

bagajohny wrote:
01 Mar 2023, 17:33
AR3-GP wrote:
01 Mar 2023, 03:22
JPower wrote:
01 Mar 2023, 01:46

Didn't say anything in that post about the car being better, just said it was different and that the RW made the comparison difficult.
We don't even know if it's truly "different" because again we have no context to say the laps were like for like.

The best time for this kind of post is comparing Q3 from year to year.

If the twitter guy wanted to provide something that would have been insightful, it would make more sense to take the best lap from 2022 Bahrain qualifying, and compare that to the best pre-season lap. Because then you have some great context for comparison of the minimum improvement of the SF23.

I just took a few minutes to put that analysis together, and it supports the improvements of Ferrari more concretely:

In this we compare Sainz's pre-season test lap with more than 20kg of fuel and low engine mode, to a 2022 Q3 lap of sainz with low fuel and max power (at the time). What you see is more interesting. Much more Straightline speed. +7kmh/h on the main straight. + 11km/h on the back straight, again with more fuel and less engine power on the '23 pre-season lap than in 2022. We also see that the overfueled SF-23 is carrying 7-8km/h more speed through Turn 11 and Turn 13 during pre-season this year, than a balls to the walls qualy lap from last year on low fuel. (Tire tends to have a bigger effect in the lower speed corners than higher speed corners like T11 and T13).

What does this mean? When Ferrari turn up the power and empty the fuel tank, these deltas will grow even larger.
https://i.postimg.cc/664KQPdH/image.png
Actually this comparison makes much more sense to me as well. Thank you for posting this. This gives us much better idea even if it is a loose comparison.
That looks like it was faster in the straights and low speed corner, but slower in medium speed corner ?

Xyz22
Xyz22
123
Joined: 16 Feb 2022, 20:05

Re: 2023 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post

AR3-GP wrote:
01 Mar 2023, 03:22
JPower wrote:
01 Mar 2023, 01:46
AR3-GP wrote:
01 Mar 2023, 01:30


Okay. I'll take your word for it. I didn't look at his other content, but this post in particular is dangerously misleading. Like comparing apples to oranges with no context and calling it good. The post offers absolutely zero insight into how much better the SF23 is than the SF-75 because there is no basis to assume the laps are like for like or anything close to.
Didn't say anything in that post about the car being better, just said it was different and that the RW made the comparison difficult.
We don't even know if it's truly "different" because again we have no context to say the laps were like for like.

The best time for this kind of post is comparing Q3 from year to year.

If the twitter guy wanted to provide something that would have been insightful, it would make more sense to take the best lap from 2022 Bahrain qualifying, and compare that to the best pre-season lap. Because then you have some great context for comparison of the minimum improvement of the SF23.

I just took a few minutes to put that analysis together, and it supports the improvements of Ferrari more concretely:

In this we compare Sainz's pre-season test lap with more than 20kg of fuel and low engine mode, to a 2022 Q3 lap of sainz with low fuel and max power (at the time). What you see is more interesting. Much more Straightline speed. +7kmh/h on the main straight. + 11km/h on the back straight, again with more fuel and less engine power on the '23 pre-season lap than in 2022. We also see that the overfueled SF-23 is carrying 7-8km/h more speed through Turn 11 and Turn 13 during pre-season this year, than a balls to the walls qualy lap from last year on low fuel. (Tire tends to have a bigger effect in the lower speed corners than higher speed corners like T11 and T13).

What does this mean? When Ferrari turn up the power and empty the fuel tank, these deltas will grow even larger.
https://i.postimg.cc/664KQPdH/image.png
Very interesting post, thanks.

User avatar
scuderiabrandon
103
Joined: 11 Feb 2023, 08:42

Re: 2023 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post

jambuka wrote:
01 Mar 2023, 18:37
bagajohny wrote:
01 Mar 2023, 17:33
AR3-GP wrote:
01 Mar 2023, 03:22


We don't even know if it's truly "different" because again we have no context to say the laps were like for like.

The best time for this kind of post is comparing Q3 from year to year.

If the twitter guy wanted to provide something that would have been insightful, it would make more sense to take the best lap from 2022 Bahrain qualifying, and compare that to the best pre-season lap. Because then you have some great context for comparison of the minimum improvement of the SF23.

I just took a few minutes to put that analysis together, and it supports the improvements of Ferrari more concretely:

In this we compare Sainz's pre-season test lap with more than 20kg of fuel and low engine mode, to a 2022 Q3 lap of sainz with low fuel and max power (at the time). What you see is more interesting. Much more Straightline speed. +7kmh/h on the main straight. + 11km/h on the back straight, again with more fuel and less engine power on the '23 pre-season lap than in 2022. We also see that the overfueled SF-23 is carrying 7-8km/h more speed through Turn 11 and Turn 13 during pre-season this year, than a balls to the walls qualy lap from last year on low fuel. (Tire tends to have a bigger effect in the lower speed corners than higher speed corners like T11 and T13).

What does this mean? When Ferrari turn up the power and empty the fuel tank, these deltas will grow even larger.
https://i.postimg.cc/664KQPdH/image.png
Actually this comparison makes much more sense to me as well. Thank you for posting this. This gives us much better idea even if it is a loose comparison.
That looks like it was faster in the straights and low speed corner, but slower in medium speed corner ?
The biggest variable that is not being accounted for is the the much less loaded rear wing (compared to '22). I still believe Ferrari's estimates to be somewhat correct come Q3.

MV8
MV8
5
Joined: 05 Aug 2021, 00:26

Re: 2023 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post

Andi76 wrote:
01 Mar 2023, 14:38

Sorry, that was a bit much, but I think something like that has to be mentioned. Finally, I would like to say again that I have never experienced such confidence at Ferrari. And since the F1 teams usually know exactly where the competition stands, I think Ferrari is well prepared. At the latest when the first updates will come in the second or third race. But the car should already not be too far away from the Red Bull. Of course, this is a purely subjective assessment and I can be wrong, but it the impression of the Ferrari people conveys this quite clearly.
I think here we will not complain about large texts :D Pretty interesting and thanks for sharing !
Just posting

AR3-GP
AR3-GP
365
Joined: 06 Jul 2021, 01:22

Re: 2023 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post

scuderiabrandon wrote:
01 Mar 2023, 20:22
jambuka wrote:
01 Mar 2023, 18:37
bagajohny wrote:
01 Mar 2023, 17:33


Actually this comparison makes much more sense to me as well. Thank you for posting this. This gives us much better idea even if it is a loose comparison.
That looks like it was faster in the straights and low speed corner, but slower in medium speed corner ?
The biggest variable that is not being accounted for is the the much less loaded rear wing (compared to '22). I still believe Ferrari's estimates to be somewhat correct come Q3.
Well, the wing is smaller, but the car is quicker in T11 and T13. That’s the reference. Car should be slower in a grip limited high speed corner if it had less dowforce.
A lion must kill its prey.

User avatar
scuderiabrandon
103
Joined: 11 Feb 2023, 08:42

Re: 2023 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post

AR3-GP wrote:
01 Mar 2023, 20:57
scuderiabrandon wrote:
01 Mar 2023, 20:22
jambuka wrote:
01 Mar 2023, 18:37


That looks like it was faster in the straights and low speed corner, but slower in medium speed corner ?
The biggest variable that is not being accounted for is the the much less loaded rear wing (compared to '22). I still believe Ferrari's estimates to be somewhat correct come Q3.
Well, the wing is smaller, but the car is quicker in T11 and T13. That’s the reference. Car should be slower in a grip limited high speed corner if it had less dowforce.
That to me suggests improved floor performance or rear wing efficiency. I thought it was only a direct comparison between top speeds. I apologize for my ignorance.

User avatar
Chuckjr
38
Joined: 24 Feb 2012, 08:34
Location: USA

Re: 2023 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post

Andi76 wrote:
01 Mar 2023, 14:38
AR3-GP wrote:
01 Mar 2023, 02:57
JPBD1990 wrote:
01 Mar 2023, 02:32


1) Ferrari went faster in testing this year than last year. While the tyres are new and accounted for much of this (probably), the margin of difference between the F1-75 and the SF-23 is greater than that of the RB18-19 and the W13-14.
This could simply be because Ferrari sandbagged more than anyone in 2022. Remember how everyone thought RB would be on pole and win in Bahrain last year or it could be because RB/Merc sandbagged more this year.

We have no idea.
Well, I would like to say several things about this....
Outstanding post, Andi76. Thank you for writing all of that. Well worth the time to read.
Watching F1 since 1986.

User avatar
organic
1055
Joined: 08 Jan 2022, 02:24
Location: Cambridge, UK

Re: 2023 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post

Yes thank you Andi!

iHill
iHill
0
Joined: 17 Feb 2023, 09:42

Re: 2023 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post

Thank you Andi


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk