Mercedes W14

[mkay]

Generally-speaking, what is the purpose of the spoon element, and why is Merc's spoon so deep and thick (compared to RW spoon wings from Ferrari, RB, and others).

[Vanja #66]

Generally-speaking, what is the purpose of the spoon element, and why is Merc's spoon so deep and thick (compared to RW spoon wings from Ferrari, RB, and others).

Spoons always had a purpose of reducing the wing tip losses, even when there were classic endplates for rear wings, with or without louvres. Losses occur on the wing tip due to pressure equalisation. However, endplate louvres also had a small downforce benefit, while actually reducing drag, so teams rarely chose to use spoon wings since wing tips could actually drive the louvres harder for bigger benefit.

With the ban of top side of endplates, wing tip losses are now huge if you choose a deep and flat wing aerofoil. To reduce the losses, you reduce the downforce (and drag) at the wing tips so you are now utilising this new feature instead of fighting it like a nuisance. Also, and this is important, by raising the tips as high as allowed by the rules, you effectively increase the side surface of your endplates which is helpful in yaw.

Merc's spoon design is their own design choice, they seem to be running a very thick and high camber aerofoil to get the pressure distribution they are aiming for. Ferrari's wing seems to use very thin aerofoils on the contrary, while RB is somewhere in between in my view.

[ValeVida46]

Is it not better to have a slightly oversteering car than an understeering one? Granted it was only testing and that there were no real attempts to optimise the setup but isn't an understeering car generally undesirable?

I think you want it neutral could be wrong, though I imagine this gives you choice to set up for either option if it leads to optimum lap time.
But it should be said most or even all cars were oversteering, some more than others. A trait that has become apparent for the 2023 tyres.

The balance issues that the team spoke about of the W14 may well be due to the rear wing, with front to rear aero not optimised because they're trying to invoke porpoising, if this was the intention then finding optimum set ups will be tougher. As the Albert Fabrega picture Organic posted shows, there is a pretty big difference from what they tested to what they've shown up with for race weekend.
The front wing too appeared pretty steeply angled against what the RB and Ferrari were running. Would be interesting to see what they have for the race. To an unqualifed amateur bystander, it might mean they probably have some tools in the box to be able to address the balance problem now they have got on top of the bouncing and the focal point shifts to set up.

[ltitus8900]

Forgive me if this was mentioned before but,

I think (though I do not fully understand it at the moment) the purpose of the cooling structure design on the W14 is to allow them to run this "lower downforce" config but with a more aggressive profile. They offset the drag penalty by implementing the benefits of the large cooling tunnels and it's upper channels. depending on the flow structures at high enough speeds, they may be able to stall the wing. Like I said, not sure about 100% just yet.

[organic]

Merc still with this front wing in the paddock despite the switch to the lower rear wing. I guess they'll just back off the flaps

[atanatizante]

Generally-speaking, what is the purpose of the spoon element, and why is Merc's spoon so deep and thick (compared to RW spoon wings from Ferrari, RB, and others).

Spoons always had a purpose of reducing the wing tip losses, even when there were classic endplates for rear wings, with or without louvres. Losses occur on the wing tip due to pressure equalisation. However, endplate louvres also had a small downforce benefit, while actually reducing drag, so teams rarely chose to use spoon wings since wing tips could actually drive the louvres harder for bigger benefit.

With the ban of top side of endplates, wing tip losses are now huge if you choose a deep and flat wing aerofoil. To reduce the losses, you reduce the downforce (and drag) at the wing tips so you are now utilising this new feature instead of fighting it like a nuisance. Also, and this is important, by raising the tips as high as allowed by the rules, you effectively increase the side surface of your endplates which is helpful in yaw.

Merc's spoon design is their own design choice, they seem to be running a very thick and high camber aerofoil to get the pressure distribution they are aiming for. Ferrari's wing seems to use very thin aerofoils on the contrary, while RB is somewhere in between in my view.

Had this is the W14`s rear wing tip (on both the old and new rear wing) why it has this kinda shape compared to SF-23`s rear wing tip?


Had I not wrong on Merc`s car with these prolonged wing tips they are trying to increase the diffuser expansion? Or they just wanna divert or act like a skirt of the rear tyre wake not to mess with the former?

[Vanja #66]

https://postimages.org/
https://postimages.org/

Had I not wrong on Merc`s car with these prolonged wing tips they are trying to increase the diffuser expansion? Or they just wanna divert or act like a skirt of the rear tyre wake not to mess with the former?

It seems to be their preference to use the maximum allowed surface of the wing. They likely found some gains with slight lateral expansion (like diffuser) as you said.

[ValeVida46]

Test spec:


Race spec:


Same

[atanatizante]

https://postimages.org/
https://postimages.org/

Had I not wrong on Merc`s car with these prolonged wing tips they are trying to increase the diffuser expansion? Or they just wanna divert or act like a skirt of the rear tyre wake not to mess with the former?

It seems to be their preference to use the maximum allowed surface of the wing. They likely found some gains with slight lateral expansion (like diffuser) as you said.

Thanx again Vanja for your quick and detailed answer!

So with this new less loaded rear wing than what they had in testing, wouldn`t they also need a new front wing? Or do they have to crank down some AoA leading flap of the front wing to balance the car?

If that`s the reason and they didn`t need to design a new front wing then could it be possible that their oversteering issue was down to this imbalance between the old and the new front wing they were running in testing?

[Vanja #66]

Aero balance now depends a lot on ride height settings and floor interaction. Do not expect them to have any issues balancing the car woth what they have for the race, it's not their first race weekend

[organic]

Fair enough

Why might they want such a thick leading edge on their DRS flap ? Compared to others it seems extreme

[icantride]

Merc still with this front wing in the paddock despite the switch to the lower rear wing. I guess they'll just back off the flaps

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FqNpFyyXgAI ... &name=orig

George's car on the right looks to be fitted with the original RW. Likely they'll do tests in FP1 with both drivers and make a decision for the rest of the weekend

[stonehenge]

Merc still with this front wing in the paddock despite the switch to the lower rear wing. I guess they'll just back off the flaps

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FqNpFyyXgAI ... &name=orig

George's car on the right looks to be fitted with the original RW. Likely they'll do tests in FP1 with both drivers and make a decision for the rest of the weekend

There are ample reasons to run both wings for comparisons in FP1, I wouldn't take it as an indication of them still considering which wing to run. Mike Elliott was pretty clear that they're gonna run a different wing than testing.

That being said, hypothetically, if they are considering running such a high df wing in Bahrain, it would probably not bode well for their concept (especially the floor). So, let's wait and see, but I'm pretty sure they're running both wings just for data and aren't actually considering using it because that would be...well, not great.

[KeiKo403]

Merc still with this front wing in the paddock despite the switch to the lower rear wing. I guess they'll just back off the flaps

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FqNpFyyXgAI ... &name=orig

George's car on the right looks to be fitted with the original RW. Likely they'll do tests in FP1 with both drivers and make a decision for the rest of the weekend

There are ample reasons to run both wings for comparisons in FP1, I wouldn't take it as an indication of them still considering which wing to run. Mike Elliott was pretty clear that they're gonna run a different wing than testing.

That being said, hypothetically, if they are considering running such a high df wing in Bahrain, it would probably not bode well for their concept (especially the floor). So, let's wait and see, but I'm pretty sure they're running both wings just for data and aren't actually considering using it because that would be...well, not great.

Unless conditions are significantly different than last Saturday (or other stuff on the car has changed) then why run both wings between George and Lewis in FP1? That isn’t a direct question to you as such, just a thinking out load kinda moment. Surely that have the relevant data on the barn door from 5 days ago

[ajprice]

Now they've got the data for the high downforce setup from the 3 day test, wouldn't running this wing and the low downforce setup just be as to correlate the low downforce against the high, to make sure the low downforce does what they think it should from the sims etc?