Mercedes W14

[Venturiation]

The problems the W14 is having have to be aerodynamic mostly because it doesn’t make sense that a customer team with same components except aero is battling for 2nd place

Mike is talking about the floor again, are they using same floor as 2022 and for now just fixed the bouncing or everything was changed but still not working compared to 2022? At that point why even introduce the new sidepods that they are currently using if they are getting changed anyway

[ringo]

I was asking during testing if the car still has the issue of tire warmup from last year. I guess it still does. Wonder why though.

Maybe a lack of high energy outwash that brings warm air from the internals of the car outward toward the wheels and into the ducts etc, plus the tyres have access to fresh air due to this lack of outwash?

No idea.

Also, given that Merc knows all about toe angles and tire warmth , I wonder why they're not able to just set the suspension geometry in such a way that promotes faster surface heating of the tyres.

Seems more a mechanical design issue than aero. This issue has plagued them since Shumacher mercedes days.
Could be something to do with their tyre department. Maybe they model the tyres differently to other teams resulting in the diva behavior over the years.

They may have the same gearbox as customers, but over the years the customers don't have the same mechanical issues. I suspect different suspension parts and just different setup on the gearbox.

They may be in the doldrums now, but I expect a faster recovery than last year. Now there is better understanding, the car may just need better setup with mechanical and aero balance.
The floor underneath, I suspect, may be even simpler than last year's.

[Andi76]

The car looks terrible in traction zones, biggest flaw from the onboards IMO. At peak downforce circuits I can see them being a force, forget about races that need a lot of mechanical grip, they will be terrible at firing the tyres up in cold conditions.

I can't imagine that they are a power on peak downforce tracks, because I think the whole "we produce so much downforce" is false talk. In the Italian media, for example, aerodynamicists have been saying since last year that one of Mercedes' problems is actually a lack of downforce. And I tend to believe that, because it is not much different now without porpoising etc. and usually a car with superior downforce drives behind others but in front of them.

[carisi2k]

I don't think the floor aside from not being optimised or as efficient as Red Bull or Aston Martin is the main problem. The main problem I believe is that they aren't controlling the wheel wake because they don't have a proper side pod. We have proof in images from this very thread showing the dirty air going in to places it shouldn't be. Without barge boards the sidepod is needed to keep control the air to the rear. The mid wing is not capable of doing this.

[ringo]

It's not totally the wheel wake. Wheel wake maybe more to do with drag reduction and some impact on the floor efficiency but not tottally.
If it were just the wheel wake it would be an easy fix. You would only have to worry about the sidepods.
Reason i say this is the other teams like willaims and mclaren and alpine arent doing so great.

I am starting to wonder if mercedes underestimated how much progress the other teams could make over 2022. Because if you have targets and you feel those were acheived over the winter.. why would it be a shock that the car is at best front of midfeild?
Did they fail to meet targets with w14 or was W14 simply set at a lower target?
The top speed is not an issue it seems, but it comes at a cost with grip at the rear. Downforce lacking at the rear, or balance.

[stonehenge]

I don't think the floor aside from not being optimised or as efficient as Red Bull or Aston Martin is the main problem. The main problem I believe is that they aren't controlling the wheel wake because they don't have a proper side pod. We have proof in images from this very thread showing the dirty air going in to places it shouldn't be. Without barge boards the sidepod is needed to keep control the air to the rear. The mid wing is not capable of doing this.

This seems to be the consensus in this thread and I'm not at all saying I don't buy it; however, if it's true that their sidepod concept is the biggest thing holding them back, what's gonna stop them from finding significant pace when they have their sidepod change ready?

I don't really understand the overlap between the people who think the sidepods are to blame and the people who think Mercedes are doomed. Aren't the side pods one of the easier things to develop mid-season? Aston Martin brought an entirely new sidepod concept midway through the season and then kept developing it, so clearly, it's possible cost-cap wise.

Personally, I do think the sidepods are a part of the problem, but I believe Mercedes when they say it's not where most of the performance is, because ironically, that would be fantastic for Mercedes. They'd have all this performance just waiting to be unlocked. I fear that the problems with the Mercedes run much deeper than that and will be hard to fix mid-season (or clearly even over the winter) but I'm curious to hear y'all's thoughts!

[stonehenge]

It's not totally the wheel wake. Wheel wake maybe more to do with drag reduction and some impact on the floor efficiency but not tottally.
If it were just the wheel wake it would be an easy fix. You would only have to worry about the sidepods.
Reason i say this is the other teams like willaims and mclaren and alpine arent doing so great.

I am starting to wonder if mercedes underestimated how much progress the other teams could make over 2022. Because if you have targets and you feel those were acheived over the winter.. why would it be a shock that the car is at best front of midfeild?
Did they fail to meet targets with w14 or was W14 simply set at a lower target?
The top speed is not an issue it seems, but it comes at a cost with grip at the rear. Downforce lacking at the rear, or balance.

Formula 1 is a sport of relative gains, so that's obviously a possibility. But the car just looks like such a handful on track. It understeers into corners and oversteers out of them. They are constantly struggling for grip and the drivers just look like they're fighting the car. Compared to an onboard with Verstappen, it's just night and day. I think there were some Mclaren-esque comments regarding early upgrades that made it seem like they missed some targets. Who knows how long this upcoming sidepod concept has been in development? For the sake of Mercedes, I hope that it's been in development for quite some time and they are confident it will be a significant step.

[AR3-GP]

It's not totally the wheel wake. Wheel wake maybe more to do with drag reduction and some impact on the floor efficiency but not tottally.
If it were just the wheel wake it would be an easy fix. You would only have to worry about the sidepods.
Reason i say this is the other teams like willaims and mclaren and alpine arent doing so great.

I am starting to wonder if mercedes underestimated how much progress the other teams could make over 2022. Because if you have targets and you feel those were acheived over the winter.. why would it be a shock that the car is at best front of midfeild?
Did they fail to meet targets with w14 or was W14 simply set at a lower target?
The top speed is not an issue it seems, but it comes at a cost with grip at the rear. Downforce lacking at the rear, or balance.

Andi76 reported several pages ago what he heard which was that the W14 did not meet expectation in the windtunnel and that is why they are working towards this upgrade package with the "different sidepod".

[Venturiation]

The car looks terrible in traction zones, biggest flaw from the onboards IMO. At peak downforce circuits I can see them being a force, forget about races that need a lot of mechanical grip, they will be terrible at firing the tyres up in cold conditions.

I can't imagine that they are a power on peak downforce tracks, because I think the whole "we produce so much downforce" is false talk. In the Italian media, for example, aerodynamicists have been saying since last year that one of Mercedes' problems is actually a lack of downforce. And I tend to believe that, because it is not much different now without porpoising etc. and usually a car with superior downforce drives behind others but in front of them.

you are taking the word of one guy ( alberto) to generalize that W14 has the less downforce, the same alberto that said it's impossible for W14 to run the new rear wing that they brought this friday because W14 has no downforce from the floor and sidepods

[Andi76]

The car looks terrible in traction zones, biggest flaw from the onboards IMO. At peak downforce circuits I can see them being a force, forget about races that need a lot of mechanical grip, they will be terrible at firing the tyres up in cold conditions.

I can't imagine that they are a power on peak downforce tracks, because I think the whole "we produce so much downforce" is false talk. In the Italian media, for example, aerodynamicists have been saying since last year that one of Mercedes' problems is actually a lack of downforce. And I tend to believe that, because it is not much different now without porpoising etc. and usually a car with superior downforce drives behind others but in front of them.

you are taking the word of one guy ( alberto) to generalize that W14 has the less downforce, the same alberto that said it's impossible for W14 to run the new rear wing that they brought this friday because W14 has no downforce from the floor and sidepods

How do you know I'm doing this? Just because you found a video where he specifically says that? Keep searching the Italian media and you will find more, not only from him. And when it comes to someone not being credible because they once put forward a false theory that a team can't do this or that - then no one is credible. Not in this forum, not on any website, not anywhere...

[mkay]

It's not totally the wheel wake. Wheel wake maybe more to do with drag reduction and some impact on the floor efficiency but not tottally.
If it were just the wheel wake it would be an easy fix. You would only have to worry about the sidepods.
Reason i say this is the other teams like willaims and mclaren and alpine arent doing so great.

I am starting to wonder if mercedes underestimated how much progress the other teams could make over 2022. Because if you have targets and you feel those were acheived over the winter.. why would it be a shock that the car is at best front of midfeild?
Did they fail to meet targets with w14 or was W14 simply set at a lower target?
The top speed is not an issue it seems, but it comes at a cost with grip at the rear. Downforce lacking at the rear, or balance.

Andi76 reported several pages ago what he heard which was that the W14 did not meet expectation in the windtunnel and that is why they are working towards this upgrade package with the "different sidepod".

And who is his/her source?

[Vanja #66]

Since Barcelona floor upgrade, Merc lacked the floor downforce per design. After testing and 2 FP sessions with new wing, it's clear they are again lacking downforce even if running bigger wings than RB and Ferrari, they are simply missing in corners. That's a sure sign of insufficient floor downforce to fight for wins, for now.

[Venturiation]

Since Barcelona floor upgrade, Merc lacked the floor downforce per design. After testing and 2 FP sessions with new wing, it's clear they are again lacking downforce even if running bigger wings than RB and Ferrari, they are simply missing in corners. That's a sure sign of insufficient floor downforce to fight for wins, for now.

how is that possible after 1 year of data collection?
are they still using the same floor as last year or is the actual floor late in production

[Andi76]

It's not totally the wheel wake. Wheel wake maybe more to do with drag reduction and some impact on the floor efficiency but not tottally.
If it were just the wheel wake it would be an easy fix. You would only have to worry about the sidepods.
Reason i say this is the other teams like willaims and mclaren and alpine arent doing so great.

I am starting to wonder if mercedes underestimated how much progress the other teams could make over 2022. Because if you have targets and you feel those were acheived over the winter.. why would it be a shock that the car is at best front of midfeild?
Did they fail to meet targets with w14 or was W14 simply set at a lower target?
The top speed is not an issue it seems, but it comes at a cost with grip at the rear. Downforce lacking at the rear, or balance.

Andi76 reported several pages ago what he heard which was that the W14 did not meet expectation in the windtunnel and that is why they are working towards this upgrade package with the "different sidepod".

And who is his/her source?

Toto Wolff, as I wrote in this thread yesterday and whose statement was confirmed by James Elliot (not that she needs to- Toto is the boss).

It's not totally the wheel wake. Wheel wake maybe more to do with drag reduction and some impact on the floor efficiency but not tottally.
If it were just the wheel wake it would be an easy fix. You would only have to worry about the sidepods.
Reason i say this is the other teams like willaims and mclaren and alpine arent doing so great.

I am starting to wonder if mercedes underestimated how much progress the other teams could make over 2022. Because if you have targets and you feel those were acheived over the winter.. why would it be a shock that the car is at best front of midfeild?
Did they fail to meet targets with w14 or was W14 simply set at a lower target?
The top speed is not an issue it seems, but it comes at a cost with grip at the rear. Downforce lacking at the rear, or balance.

Even though the Front Wheel Wake probably has a lot to do with it, i don't think anyone limited it to just the front wheel wake, but always several things involved here that negatively affect each other, as is usually the case when it comes to aerodynamics.

[Venturiation]

Merc using high downforce wing for one car