Ferrari SF23

A place to discuss the characteristics of the cars in Formula One, both current as well as historical. Laptimes, driver worshipping and team chatter do not belong here.
Andi76
Andi76
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Joined: 03 Feb 2021, 20:19

Re: Ferrari SF23

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Interesting comparison of SF-23s floor edge to Red Bull and Mercedes (sorry for the poor quality)

Image


It is clear that Ferrari's floor edge is very simple compared to Red Bull and Mercedes, which is due to the different concept, so Ferrari also has a much lower airflow in this area. Mercedes and Red Bull might have an advantage in this area with their floor edge wings regarding the underbody, while Ferrari probably thinks that this is outweighed by the advantages of their bathtubs. Quite interesting how the different concepts produce different solutions in this area as well.

FDD
FDD
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Joined: 29 Mar 2019, 01:08

Re: Ferrari SF23

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Andi76 wrote:
04 Mar 2023, 16:00
Interesting comparison of SF-23s floor edge to Red Bull and Mercedes (sorry for the poor quality)

https://postimages.org/


It is clear that Ferrari's floor edge is very simple compared to Red Bull and Mercedes, which is due to the different concept, so Ferrari also has a much lower airflow in this area. Mercedes and Red Bull might have an advantage in this area with their floor edge wings regarding the underbody, while Ferrari probably thinks that this is outweighed by the advantages of their bathtubs. Quite interesting how the different concepts produce different solutions in this area as well.
Alberto Aimar as you notice, also said that there is no space for some vortex generators or flow diverters on SF23 (like on RB19 or W14) since the floor edge is very narrow and these kind of aero details simply will not work on their concept.

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organic
1055
Joined: 08 Jan 2022, 02:24
Location: Cambridge, UK

Re: Ferrari SF23

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FDD wrote:
04 Mar 2023, 16:41
Andi76 wrote:
04 Mar 2023, 16:00
Interesting comparison of SF-23s floor edge to Red Bull and Mercedes (sorry for the poor quality)

https://postimages.org/


It is clear that Ferrari's floor edge is very simple compared to Red Bull and Mercedes, which is due to the different concept, so Ferrari also has a much lower airflow in this area. Mercedes and Red Bull might have an advantage in this area with their floor edge wings regarding the underbody, while Ferrari probably thinks that this is outweighed by the advantages of their bathtubs. Quite interesting how the different concepts produce different solutions in this area as well.
Alberto Aimar as you notice, also said that there is no space for some vortex generators or flow diverters on SF23 (like on RB19 or W14) since the floor edge is very narrow and these kind of aero details simply will not work on their concept.
Potentially why RB didn't run any of this sort of device last year either. They've widened the real estate in that area for '23 by increasing the undercut allowing them to place these devices. Maybe this is a potential sf23 development path too.

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Vanja #66
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Re: Ferrari SF23

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FDD wrote:
04 Mar 2023, 16:41
Alberto Aimar as you notice, also said that there is no space for some vortex generators or flow diverters on SF23 (like on RB19 or W14) since the floor edge is very narrow and these kind of aero details simply will not work on their concept.
That's debatable, there are plenty of options for edge treatment on SF-23, winglets are just one of them. VGs and other flow conditioners? I can't see why not
And they call it a stall. A STALL!

#DwarvesAreNaturalSprinters
#BlessYouLaddie

FDD
FDD
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Joined: 29 Mar 2019, 01:08

Re: Ferrari SF23

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Vanja #66 wrote:
04 Mar 2023, 16:45
FDD wrote:
04 Mar 2023, 16:41
Alberto Aimar as you notice, also said that there is no space for some vortex generators or flow diverters on SF23 (like on RB19 or W14) since the floor edge is very narrow and these kind of aero details simply will not work on their concept.
That's debatable, there are plenty of options for edge treatment on SF-23, winglets are just one of them. VGs and other flow conditioners? I can't see why not
That was observation by Alberto, but maybe he is wrong, I can not comment on that cause I am not an
aero expert.

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Vanja #66
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Joined: 19 Mar 2012, 16:38

Re: Ferrari SF23

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Yep, I understood, just my 2 cents
And they call it a stall. A STALL!

#DwarvesAreNaturalSprinters
#BlessYouLaddie

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ing.
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Joined: 15 Mar 2021, 20:00

Re: Ferrari SF23

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Vanja #66 wrote:
04 Mar 2023, 16:45
FDD wrote:
04 Mar 2023, 16:41
Alberto Aimar as you notice, also said that there is no space for some vortex generators or flow diverters on SF23 (like on RB19 or W14) since the floor edge is very narrow and these kind of aero details simply will not work on their concept.
That's debatable, there are plenty of options for edge treatment on SF-23, winglets are just one of them. VGs and other flow conditioners? I can't see why not
Floor edge treatment on the AM is also relatively simple so maybe the complexity of the furniture in this area is not necessarily an indicator of the effectiveness of the floor design.

Sevach
Sevach
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Joined: 07 Jun 2012, 17:00

Re: Ferrari SF23

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Anyone knows if Ferrari are still running skates (which count as an edge wing)?

From the exterior Ferrari looks a lot like last years Red Bull, basically there's what in 2021 people called a Z-cut, sacrificing some size for a stronger sealing vortex.
Red Bull now switched to running an edge wing(looks somewhat similar under this edge wing), maybe Ferrari will follow.

Somewhat curious that in 2017/18(not that long ago) Ferrari used to be in the leading edge in terms edge treatment.

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organic
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Location: Cambridge, UK

Re: Ferrari SF23

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At Ferrari, the approach is pragmatic and conservative because the SF-23 is not showing as much as it did at the factory. Meanwhile Red Bull denies using more conservative ground clearance. Qualifying analysis.
Shiieiet.. :? Correlation issues?
Ferrari didn't come to Bahrain to win,but with an objective that was to maximize the result of this race because, as Vasseur put it, "the world championship cannot be won in Bahrain" . A progmatic and conservative approach, the result of a car that is not showing the same performance on the track as seen at the Maranello simulator . The front is missing and at least four tenths, at least in Bahrain.
Not only the underateer but four tenths. That needs to be fixed before they can properly develop, surely?

Direct link to article: https://www.formu1a.uno/ecco-perche-in- ... in-difesa/


AR3-GP
AR3-GP
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Joined: 06 Jul 2021, 01:22

Re: Ferrari SF23

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Sevach wrote:
04 Mar 2023, 20:38
Anyone knows if Ferrari are still running skates (which count as an edge wing)?
Skates were banned
A lion must kill its prey.

AR3-GP
AR3-GP
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Joined: 06 Jul 2021, 01:22

Re: Ferrari SF23

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organic wrote:
04 Mar 2023, 20:39
At Ferrari, the approach is pragmatic and conservative because the SF-23 is not showing as much as it did at the factory. Meanwhile Red Bull denies using more conservative ground clearance. Qualifying analysis.
Shiieiet.. :? Correlation issues?
Ferrari didn't come to Bahrain to win,but with an objective that was to maximize the result of this race because, as Vasseur put it, "the world championship cannot be won in Bahrain" . A progmatic and conservative approach, the result of a car that is not showing the same performance on the track as seen at the Maranello simulator . The front is missing and at least four tenths, at least in Bahrain.
Not only the underateer but four tenths. That needs to be fixed before they can properly develop, surely?

Direct link to article: https://www.formu1a.uno/ecco-perche-in- ... in-difesa/

I think 4 tenths isn't THAT crazy. The W13 last year was something like 1-1.5 seconds slower than their sims.
A lion must kill its prey.

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organic
1055
Joined: 08 Jan 2022, 02:24
Location: Cambridge, UK

Re: Ferrari SF23

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Yes but any correlation issues compared to merc's is going to look small. 4 tenths is almost half a second. That's the gap from RB to Merc right now
Last edited by organic on 04 Mar 2023, 21:06, edited 1 time in total.

tpe
tpe
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Location: Greece

Re: Ferrari SF23

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organic wrote:
04 Mar 2023, 20:39

Shiieiet.. :? Correlation issues?
This is the opposite of what all team members say to the press. Strange.

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Vanja #66
1562
Joined: 19 Mar 2012, 16:38

Re: Ferrari SF23

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organic wrote:
04 Mar 2023, 20:39
At Ferrari, the approach is pragmatic and conservative because the SF-23 is not showing as much as it did at the factory. Meanwhile Red Bull denies using more conservative ground clearance. Qualifying analysis.
Shiieiet.. :? Correlation issues?
Ferrari didn't come to Bahrain to win,but with an objective that was to maximize the result of this race because, as Vasseur put it, "the world championship cannot be won in Bahrain" . A progmatic and conservative approach, the result of a car that is not showing the same performance on the track as seen at the Maranello simulator . The front is missing and at least four tenths, at least in Bahrain.
Not only the underateer but four tenths. That needs to be fixed before they can properly develop, surely?

Direct link to article: https://www.formu1a.uno/ecco-perche-in- ... in-difesa/
Sounds to me like combined time "available" with better working front and actually used new rear wing. There really isn't anything complicated enough with the front wing aerodynamically that can cause a loss of 4 tenths alone, rules simply don't allow complex geometry anymore. What can happen is as we discussed, a bit too much flexing at medium-high speed corners, resulting in slight loss of downforce.

This slight loss, however, could potentially cause balance issues and lead to other setup compromises and that could maybe grow to 4 tenths. To me this sounds not only plausible, but maybe even slightly too optimistic, as this is a loss that can be recovered quickly, just like they announced already.
And they call it a stall. A STALL!

#DwarvesAreNaturalSprinters
#BlessYouLaddie

Sevach
Sevach
1081
Joined: 07 Jun 2012, 17:00

Re: Ferrari SF23

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Vanja #66 wrote:
04 Mar 2023, 21:58
organic wrote:
04 Mar 2023, 20:39
At Ferrari, the approach is pragmatic and conservative because the SF-23 is not showing as much as it did at the factory. Meanwhile Red Bull denies using more conservative ground clearance. Qualifying analysis.
Shiieiet.. :? Correlation issues?
Ferrari didn't come to Bahrain to win,but with an objective that was to maximize the result of this race because, as Vasseur put it, "the world championship cannot be won in Bahrain" . A progmatic and conservative approach, the result of a car that is not showing the same performance on the track as seen at the Maranello simulator . The front is missing and at least four tenths, at least in Bahrain.
Not only the underateer but four tenths. That needs to be fixed before they can properly develop, surely?

Direct link to article: https://www.formu1a.uno/ecco-perche-in- ... in-difesa/
Sounds to me like combined time "available" with better working front and actually used new rear wing. There really isn't anything complicated enough with the front wing aerodynamically that can cause a loss of 4 tenths alone, rules simply don't allow complex geometry anymore. What can happen is as we discussed, a bit too much flexing at medium-high speed corners, resulting in slight loss of downforce.

This slight loss, however, could potentially cause balance issues and lead to other setup compromises and that could maybe grow to 4 tenths. To me this sounds not only plausible, but maybe even slightly too optimistic, as this is a loss that can be recovered quickly, just like they announced already.
Yep, they planned/expected to be 4 tenths faster, 1 thing we know they are missing is the new model RW, to that we add the rumour that the FW isn't giving the intended results.
I suspect most of those 4 tenths come down to these 2 things.