At least 5, likely 7+
This weekend was very unlucky for them and there is obviously a lot more that car can do, they admitted they expected to lap 0.4s faster at least. Wings were holding them down and it's much easier to fix wings than floor or drag. It's a reverse from last year, when Ferrari was running at 100% in the early races and RB was slowly running better and better.You are expecting too much imo. Forget about the DNF but the way these rival cars wizz past that Ferrari and built a comfortable gap within few laps is shocking.Vanja #66 wrote: ↑06 Mar 2023, 10:10At least 5, likely 7+
Is this a 10-place at Jeddah?Contrary to what was declared hot in suspecting the ICE (endothermic engine) as the cause of the withdrawal of the Monegasque, when Leclerc's car was disassembled and checked, the fault was found in the ERS-battery pack. These two drives will not be recoverable.
If you can get the lap by lap you'll see it fluctuated 4-6 tenths slower on average in S2. This is where we lost the majority of our lap time. We where there or there abouts in s1 and s3, although sometimes up to 2 tenths in s1 as well.LM10 wrote: ↑05 Mar 2023, 22:14This sums it up perfectly. The outcry on here is unbearable.
Everyone knew (or should have known, if they had paid attention) that the car is not ready yet and that they went for a compromized setup. The team has told that numerous times - it was readable between the lines. On top of the fact that they have not found an optimal setup, they were not able to use the rear wing they were planning to use.
Such big is the overall modification the car went through. Testing was not enough obviously.
The SF-23 with the skinniest rear wing and beam wing combination and an issue on the front end (which they will solve in the next few races) was the fastest car in certain corners. Leclerc was only a tenth slower than the fastest driver in S2 who was Max in the RB19 which is sorted out completely and working in it's optimal window.
It was the first race of the longest season in F1 ever and people are writing off everything already. Just ridiculous.
yeah. If all written is true.organic wrote: ↑06 Mar 2023, 12:51Is this a 10-place at Jeddah?Contrary to what was declared hot in suspecting the ICE (endothermic engine) as the cause of the withdrawal of the Monegasque, when Leclerc's car was disassembled and checked, the fault was found in the ERS-battery pack. These two drives will not be recoverable.
https://www.formu1a.uno/red-bull-domina ... o-leclerc/
The SF-23 is fast without question. In qualifying, you can see the pure speed of a car. However, Ferrari has two huge problems - they can't use the car's speed in the race, because as soon as they push, the tires literally burn. And here we are with problem one. On the one hand, they said that the car is exactly as the simulator predicted. Everyone was positive. But then on the weekend there was suddenly talk of correlation issues. Contradictory, isn't it? No. Both are true. The SF-23 is exactly as it should be. What is not true and where there are correlation issues is when the tires come into play. And that is Ferrari's big problem. The origin is at the end of the Todt/Brawn/Byrne/Schumacher era with which the tire war ended. Di Montezemolo wanted to transfer all the engineers (6 or 7 if I remember correctly) when the tire war was over and there was no Brawn or Byrne left, and dissolve the Tire Dynamics department, a sub-department of Vehicle Dynamics, whose only task was to ensure that tires, chassis, suspension and aerodynamics were perfectly matched already in the design phase. This was prevented for a short time, but in 2008 it happened anyway. Pat Fry insisted then however that Hammy of Bridegestone was hired and until 2012 or 2013 he alone cared about it. Since then there is no such departement and not one single person at Ferrari who works on that. Accordingly, Ferrari's tire model leaves a lot to be desired and during the design process, the tire is no longer included in the vehicle design in any way, as it should be. Adrian Newey insisted on such a department when he joined Red Bull and it still exists today. Aston Martin has also set up such a department, while all the other teams work according to Ferrari's philosophy - the tires are the same for everyone, it's all about tuning...so Red Bull is light years ahead of everyone else, because everything on the car is designed in interaction with the tires right from the start. And that's why Ferrari's tires overheat immediately even though they've changed the suspension, etc., but there are a lot more things involved.Shal_Leg16 wrote: ↑06 Mar 2023, 12:01You are expecting too much imo. Forget about the DNF but the way these rival cars wizz past that Ferrari and built a comfortable gap within few laps is shocking.Vanja #66 wrote: ↑06 Mar 2023, 10:10At least 5, likely 7+
I am starting to feel that only reason Ferrari is up there behind RBs in race is because everyone else is shyt. Hypothetically Say by few months if Mercs come up better Aero/sidepod concept I feel Ferrari would struggle for podiums forget about wins
Two battery packs burned. Seemingly looks like the issue wasn't with the packs themselves. Also the team stating that nothing similar ever happened with any of the cars, yet Charles going through two packs on a weekend does point towards something else being the cause.organic wrote: ↑06 Mar 2023, 12:51Is this a 10-place at Jeddah?Contrary to what was declared hot in suspecting the ICE (endothermic engine) as the cause of the withdrawal of the Monegasque, when Leclerc's car was disassembled and checked, the fault was found in the ERS-battery pack. These two drives will not be recoverable.
https://www.formu1a.uno/red-bull-domina ... o-leclerc/
Methodical explanation of the management "environment" in GES, AS IT IS ! ! !Andi76 wrote: ↑06 Mar 2023, 14:48The SF-23 is fast without question. In qualifying, you can see the pure speed of a car. However, Ferrari has two huge problems - they can't use the car's speed in the race, because as soon as they push, the tires literally burn. And here we are with problem one. On the one hand, they said that the car is exactly as the simulator predicted. Everyone was positive. But then on the weekend there was suddenly talk of correlation issues. Contradictory, isn't it? No. Both are true. The SF-23 is exactly as it should be. What is not true and where there are correlation issues is when the tires come into play. And that is Ferrari's big problem. The origin is at the end of the Todt/Brawn/Byrne/Schumacher era with which the tire war ended. Di Montezemolo wanted to transfer all the engineers (6 or 7 if I remember correctly) when the tire war was over and there was no Brawn or Byrne left, and dissolve the Tire Dynamics department, a sub-department of Vehicle Dynamics, whose only task was to ensure that tires, chassis, suspension and aerodynamics were perfectly matched already in the design phase. This was prevented for a short time, but in 2008 it happened anyway. Pat Fry insisted then however that Hammy of Bridegestone was hired and until 2012 or 2013 he alone cared about it. Since then there is no such departement and not one single person at Ferrari who works on that. Accordingly, Ferrari's tire model leaves a lot to be desired and during the design process, the tire is no longer included in the vehicle design in any way, as it should be. Adrian Newey insisted on such a department when he joined Red Bull and it still exists today. Aston Martin has also set up such a department, while all the other teams work according to Ferrari's philosophy - the tires are the same for everyone, it's all about tuning...so Red Bull is light years ahead of everyone else, because everything on the car is designed in interaction with the tires right from the start. And that's why Ferrari's tires overheat immediately even though they've changed the suspension, etc., but there are a lot more things involved.Shal_Leg16 wrote: ↑06 Mar 2023, 12:01You are expecting too much imo. Forget about the DNF but the way these rival cars wizz past that Ferrari and built a comfortable gap within few laps is shocking.Vanja #66 wrote: ↑06 Mar 2023, 10:10
At least 5, likely 7+
I am starting to feel that only reason Ferrari is up there behind RBs in race is because everyone else is shyt. Hypothetically Say by few months if Mercs come up better Aero/sidepod concept I feel Ferrari would struggle for podiums forget about wins
Ferrari's second problem is that people like Binotto (or now Vasseur) or Cardille or Sanchez can't do what they want. Every week either Elkan, Vigna or Pierro Lardi Ferrari come along and overturn development plans and tell the engineers what has to be done. Binotto, for example, wanted to do a few things differently on the SF-23, as well as introduce a few new things last year. Elkan was against it. In the Todt/Brawn/Byrne/Schumacher days, that kind of thing didn't happen. Brawn had in his contract that he had full technical responsibility and he insisted on that, which led to a dispute between him and Montezemolo. But without Brawn, Schumacher, Byrne and Todt would have left. So the team was run by people who knew their stuff and could do what they wanted. Development plans were followed and only changed if it brought a technical advantage and it was worked calmly in one direction and not today here and tomorrow there. That's Ferrari's second big problem and even a Newey couldn't make a difference under these circumstances.
But the SF-23 is a very fast car in itself. The problem is the tires and Ferrari's approach to them. The car is aerodynamically very efficient and not much slower than the Red Bull. It's the tires that slow down the SF-23 and give the RB19 wings in the race, and this is where Ferrari needs to put all its effort in to improve. Certainly, they will always be at a disadvantage, as the Red Bull was "designed" for this in the design phase, while Ferrari can only optimize with the suspension and set-up. But if you finally understand this mistake (which is less on the engineers than on the "Ferrari bosses) immediately make the necessary investments and appoint the right people to finally close the gap in this area.
One must also take into account that the SF-23 is not yet "finished". Binotto was the technical director and the only one who knew practically "everything" and where everything came together. An aerodynamics package will be coming soon, which will further improve the SF-23 and also help in the area of tires. Ferrari will then already be a good distance away from Mercedes, which will be difficult to catch up. Especially since it doesn't mean that just because Mercedes brings a new concept or copies existing ones or whatever, that they'll make a giant leap because of it, because they don't really know what their problem is, which will make it difficult to get close to Ferrari in the normal case. Unfortunately, "normal case" at Ferrari is always not so simple, because much will depend on how much Elkan, Vigna &Co. hold back and how much Binotto was still willing to ensure that nothing is lost....
Thank you for the insight Andi, this sort of post is much appreciated. I have faith in the engineers to claw back the gap, as difficult as that may be. The SF-23 certainly has a lot of potential to be gained through understanding and upgrades.Andi76 wrote: ↑06 Mar 2023, 14:48The SF-23 is fast without question. In qualifying, you can see the pure speed of a car. However, Ferrari has two huge problems - they can't use the car's speed in the race, because as soon as they push, the tires literally burn. And here we are with problem one. On the one hand, they said that the car is exactly as the simulator predicted. Everyone was positive. But then on the weekend there was suddenly talk of correlation issues. Contradictory, isn't it? No. Both are true. The SF-23 is exactly as it should be. What is not true and where there are correlation issues is when the tires come into play. And that is Ferrari's big problem. The origin is at the end of the Todt/Brawn/Byrne/Schumacher era with which the tire war ended. Di Montezemolo wanted to transfer all the engineers (6 or 7 if I remember correctly) when the tire war was over and there was no Brawn or Byrne left, and dissolve the Tire Dynamics department, a sub-department of Vehicle Dynamics, whose only task was to ensure that tires, chassis, suspension and aerodynamics were perfectly matched already in the design phase. This was prevented for a short time, but in 2008 it happened anyway. Pat Fry insisted then however that Hammy of Bridegestone was hired and until 2012 or 2013 he alone cared about it. Since then there is no such departement and not one single person at Ferrari who works on that. Accordingly, Ferrari's tire model leaves a lot to be desired and during the design process, the tire is no longer included in the vehicle design in any way, as it should be. Adrian Newey insisted on such a department when he joined Red Bull and it still exists today. Aston Martin has also set up such a department, while all the other teams work according to Ferrari's philosophy - the tires are the same for everyone, it's all about tuning...so Red Bull is light years ahead of everyone else, because everything on the car is designed in interaction with the tires right from the start. And that's why Ferrari's tires overheat immediately even though they've changed the suspension, etc., but there are a lot more things involved.Shal_Leg16 wrote: ↑06 Mar 2023, 12:01You are expecting too much imo. Forget about the DNF but the way these rival cars wizz past that Ferrari and built a comfortable gap within few laps is shocking.Vanja #66 wrote: ↑06 Mar 2023, 10:10
At least 5, likely 7+
I am starting to feel that only reason Ferrari is up there behind RBs in race is because everyone else is shyt. Hypothetically Say by few months if Mercs come up better Aero/sidepod concept I feel Ferrari would struggle for podiums forget about wins
Ferrari's second problem is that people like Binotto (or now Vasseur) or Cardille or Sanchez can't do what they want. Every week either Elkan, Vigna or Pierro Lardi Ferrari come along and overturn development plans and tell the engineers what has to be done. Binotto, for example, wanted to do a few things differently on the SF-23, as well as introduce a few new things last year. Elkan was against it. In the Todt/Brawn/Byrne/Schumacher days, that kind of thing didn't happen. Brawn had in his contract that he had full technical responsibility and he insisted on that, which led to a dispute between him and Montezemolo. But without Brawn, Schumacher, Byrne and Todt would have left. So the team was run by people who knew their stuff and could do what they wanted. Development plans were followed and only changed if it brought a technical advantage and it was worked calmly in one direction and not today here and tomorrow there. That's Ferrari's second big problem and even a Newey couldn't make a difference under these circumstances.
But the SF-23 is a very fast car in itself. The problem is the tires and Ferrari's approach to them. The car is aerodynamically very efficient and not much slower than the Red Bull. It's the tires that slow down the SF-23 and give the RB19 wings in the race, and this is where Ferrari needs to put all its effort in to improve. Certainly, they will always be at a disadvantage, as the Red Bull was "designed" for this in the design phase, while Ferrari can only optimize with the suspension and set-up. But if you finally understand this mistake (which is less on the engineers than on the "Ferrari bosses) immediately make the necessary investments and appoint the right people to finally close the gap in this area.
One must also take into account that the SF-23 is not yet "finished". Binotto was the technical director and the only one who knew practically "everything" and where everything came together. An aerodynamics package will be coming soon, which will further improve the SF-23 and also help in the area of tires. Ferrari will then already be a good distance away from Mercedes, which will be difficult to catch up. Especially since it doesn't mean that just because Mercedes brings a new concept or copies existing ones or whatever, that they'll make a giant leap because of it, because they don't really know what their problem is, which will make it difficult to get close to Ferrari in the normal case. Unfortunately, "normal case" at Ferrari is always not so simple, because much will depend on how much Elkan, Vigna &Co. hold back and how much Binotto was still willing to ensure that nothing is lost....
