2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

[Venturiation]

I think there are several things that are very worrying about Mercedes and maybe the reason why they were overtaken within a short time not only by Ferrari and Red Bull but also by Aston Martin. The fact that they didn't realize last year that the concept is wrong and has too many disadvantages is one thing. If all teams turn away from this concept or similar concepts relatively quickly, as Williams and McLaren did, that should have been a sign. When the teams then all came closer to Red Bull and Ferrari, and not a single Mercedes and other teams explained that they had also tested such a concept, but rejected it, and one always despite all the problems that coincided with the statements described the aerodynamicists of other teams - at the latest then one should have rethought. That this did not happen is something that is very worrying. Another thing is that Mercedes, according to its own statement, tested the concepts of the competitors and could not achieve better results. Whereas Aston Martin, with the same tools, i.e. wind tunnel etc., same suspension and engine, was able to find quite a bit more performance with these concepts. Since it obviously cannot be due to these things, there are basically only two things left to explain why one has not recognized for too long that one has developed a completely wrong concept and has held on to it for too long despite clear indications of this and why one is not able to achieve comparatively more performance from proven better concepts:

They still haven't realized what "ground effect cars are all about", which is not to be taken literally, because what is meant by that are those subtleties that, in addition to more stable aerodynamics, allow other concepts to extract the crucial 5 to 7 tenths that make the difference between the cars in the first two rows of the grid and the midfield. The only other explanation would simply be that Mercedes, after losing people like Aldo Costa or Blandin, simply no longer has the necessary competence. In the end, the competition also poaches these people for a certain reason (Costa left to win LeMans but there were enough others). And if you didn't notice her departure, then both the team that got her and the team that relied on her for years would have done something wrong. After 8 years of dominance, a bit of arrogance about one's own abilities has certainly played a role or favored something. In my eyes, that's something that's really worrying about Mercedes and that you also have to take into account.

Eric Baldin leaving was what hit Mercedes but mike should have learned enough from him

What if the zeropods was baldin design?

Who is Baldin?

it's clear that the problem is somewhere else

Ferrari had seen in the simulator that the car would be 1 second faster, on track it had exact same lap time as the F75 from last year in bahrain

same what happened with the W13 big numbers but impossible to see on the track
it could be either that both concepts are limited wich i don't think so

or that dan fallows found a big advantage that he built into the RB18 and brought with him to the AMR23

no car can gain That much lap time in just 6 months and nail it in their first concept

dan fallows and now eric blandin is head of aero he was at mercedes before until august 21

[Big Tea]

One part of the problem sees to be the amount of people leaving. Merc had one of the largest staffs, so were always going to be the losers anyway, but where there would have been a line of succession where the 2ic would replace an essential position it seems that pure weight of numbers means there is no 'conveyer belt' feeding the gaps.
Not only loss of their own people but the inability (due to cap) of bringing in alternatives.

[Venturiation]

One part of the problem sees to be the amount of people leaving. Merc had one of the largest staffs, so were always going to be the losers anyway, but where there would have been a line of succession where the 2ic would replace an essential position it seems that pure weight of numbers means there is no 'conveyer belt' feeding the gaps.
Not only loss of their own people but the inability (due to cap) of bringing in alternatives.

so redbull losing fallows will hit them hard and aston martin can be WDC next year?

so in the end it comes just to one engineer?

fallows and seven of his went from redbull to aston, and magically the team of 100 became strong

and the all the engineers that were directed by blandin at mercedes now know nothing?

[ringo]

Stroll is going to beach the AMR23 at some point so we will see the underneath. Likewise Perez. We would be able to compare the floors.

[napoleon1981]

It sure isn’t when that same concept is now at the weight limit and every other team bar one was also overweight. It was a consequence of the regulations, not any one concept within those regulations.

It is, because they did not have the resources to do it. Only now, without majorly changing the car they are able to do it.

Anyway long story, but the Merc was faster in Q3 than last years RB. Slice or dice it the way you want. The car gained alot of pace and engineers were fooled. Likely by their own rule they advocated for. Raising the floor edge (as you like) 15mm and losing alot of reference.

Concept and the construction composits are two different things. Lack of capacity or development work or R&D for newer and lighter composits, to reduce the weight, due to cost cap, isn't the problem of concept. It's the external factors that are limiting the concept. As soon as they got the budget from 2022, they could reduce the weight and concept didn't create hurdles for reducing it.

They are not as separate as you make it sound. I get what you are saying. But the driver of the short wheel base concept of the Alfa Romeo was weight savings and being able to produce a car at or under the limit. Weight is part of the concept and particularly relevant in a cost cap era where you cant just keep throwing exotic materials at it.

[Big Tea]

One part of the problem sees to be the amount of people leaving. Merc had one of the largest staffs, so were always going to be the losers anyway, but where there would have been a line of succession where the 2ic would replace an essential position it seems that pure weight of numbers means there is no 'conveyer belt' feeding the gaps.
Not only loss of their own people but the inability (due to cap) of bringing in alternatives.

so redbull losing fallows will hit them hard and aston martin can be WDC next year?

so in the end it comes just to one engineer?

fallows and seven of his went from redbull to aston, and magically the team of 100 became strong

and the all the engineers that were directed by blandin at mercedes now know nothing?

The exact opposite of what I am saying. It is never about one person whoever they are, there is always a line of succession for the top jobs. (not always internal)

If top people leave and those scheduled to replace them also move, or have to move sideways to fill another hole, there is a skills (or experience) gap and the person expected to fill it is not available, so someone has to, which leaves glitches all through.

I could believe the exception here may be Newey, but it would be an even harder hit if he left with no line of succession in place.

[napoleon1981]

You said all concepts are significantly faster than the RB18. Last I checked being overweight isn’t part of anyone’s concept. It’s just a simple fact that if you account for weight then your statement doesn’t hold true, which carries some pretty dire implications for Merc.

Weight is for sure related to a concept. THe other important thing you are leaving out is that the floor area was cut down and the ride height was raised. Even with those additional limitations the Merc was faster than last years RB18. Can't just pick one thing out. The W14 probably looked good in the windtunnel until the RB19 and AM turned it up in Q3.

isn't that even more concerning if the W14 looks good to mercedes and it's still 1s off?

Well im sure it doesnt look good to them anymore.

[DGP123]

Following the 22’ turd & the winter 23’ dud, if the mid season 23’ radical concept is a dog, that will be the final straw for Hamilton. Absolutely no reason to extend his deal. I’ve never truly believed in his loyalty to Mercedes’, he’s ruthless, and the Merc empire has crumbled around him, with staff jumping from the sinking ship on a regular basis. Wouldn’t surprise me to see him put feelers out to Ferrari to take Sainz’ seat for 24’, or it shall be the end and into retirement. There’s no chance he sticks around for another few years driving these Mike Elliott pieces of s**t. No ******* chance.

[Andi76]

I think there are several things that are very worrying about Mercedes and maybe the reason why they were overtaken within a short time not only by Ferrari and Red Bull but also by Aston Martin. The fact that they didn't realize last year that the concept is wrong and has too many disadvantages is one thing. If all teams turn away from this concept or similar concepts relatively quickly, as Williams and McLaren did, that should have been a sign. When the teams then all came closer to Red Bull and Ferrari, and not a single Mercedes and other teams explained that they had also tested such a concept, but rejected it, and one always despite all the problems that coincided with the statements described the aerodynamicists of other teams - at the latest then one should have rethought. That this did not happen is something that is very worrying. Another thing is that Mercedes, according to its own statement, tested the concepts of the competitors and could not achieve better results. Whereas Aston Martin, with the same tools, i.e. wind tunnel etc., same suspension and engine, was able to find quite a bit more performance with these concepts. Since it obviously cannot be due to these things, there are basically only two things left to explain why one has not recognized for too long that one has developed a completely wrong concept and has held on to it for too long despite clear indications of this and why one is not able to achieve comparatively more performance from proven better concepts:

They still haven't realized what "ground effect cars are all about", which is not to be taken literally, because what is meant by that are those subtleties that, in addition to more stable aerodynamics, allow other concepts to extract the crucial 5 to 7 tenths that make the difference between the cars in the first two rows of the grid and the midfield. The only other explanation would simply be that Mercedes, after losing people like Aldo Costa or Blandin, simply no longer has the necessary competence. In the end, the competition also poaches these people for a certain reason (Costa left to win LeMans but there were enough others). And if you didn't notice her departure, then both the team that got her and the team that relied on her for years would have done something wrong. After 8 years of dominance, a bit of arrogance about one's own abilities has certainly played a role or favored something. In my eyes, that's something that's really worrying about Mercedes and that you also have to take into account.

Eric Baldin leaving was what hit Mercedes but mike should have learned enough from him

What if the zeropods was baldin design?

Who is Baldin?

it's clear that the problem is somewhere else

Ferrari had seen in the simulator that the car would be 1 second faster, on track it had exact same lap time as the F75 from last year in bahrain

same what happened with the W13 big numbers but impossible to see on the track
it could be either that both concepts are limited wich i don't think so

or that dan fallows found a big advantage that he built into the RB18 and brought with him to the AMR23

no car can gain That much lap time in just 6 months and nail it in their first concept

dan fallows and now eric blandin is head of aero he was at mercedes before until august 21

I know who Dan Fallows and Eric Blandin are. I just did not know that Baldin guy you were talking about in several posts since yesterday...obviously good that Google exists...

There is hardly any explainable aerodynamic reason why Ferrari's concept should be limited in any way. Also, maybe you should listen less to what the Italian press writes in the weeks leading up to the presentation of the new car. Those are not necessarily sources on which you should draw any conclusions or base any analysis.

If you think it's not possible to nail it with the first concept, then you may be celebrating your 100th birthday as a race spectator in two or three years. Whether it's McLaren in 1989, Benetton and Williams in 1994, Ferrari in 2001, Renault in 2005, Brawn and Red Bull in 2009, or Mercedes in 2014, the history of Formula 1 is full of stories where teams, after a drastic aerodynamic regulary change nailed it with the first concept. Also, historically, it is not unusual for a team to find some time over the winter, especially in the second year of a new regulation, because when a new regulation is introduced there is a lot of room for improvement. There have been much bigger jumps, especially since it is actually not that big. Even if you take into account that the changes to the underbody make the cars half a second slower, it would be "only" 1.5 seconds. If you now consider that the new Pirelli tires are 1 to 1.5 seconds faster, then the whole thing looks less impressive, not to mention any giant leaps explained only by mysterious secrets. Rather, it looks like Red Bull made a completely normal step forward and the others (except AM) either didn't do a good job here, don't understand their car yet due to countless changes (where a second can be found quickly) or can't cope with the new Pirelli tires (Ferrari found 2 seconds in 1997 only with tuning work and adaptation to the Goodyear tires). After one race, even more so on a track that is not really representative, one can therefore in no way make a statement that is in any way meaningful. At least as long as you don't have a fundamental aerodynamic problem.

[AR3-GP]

George Russell wants to do the experiments this year : https://us.motorsport.com/f1/news/russe ... /10440989/

[mstar]

seem like james is returning. I wonder if this is a slight slap in the face for Mike. I am sure James has been up to speed on this and i am quite sure Toto has put James in charge of the next upgrades not mike.

[DGP123]

George Russell wants to do the experiments this year : https://us.motorsport.com/f1/news/russe ... /10440989/

Now that Hamilton isn’t experimenting, Russell knows he will be bent over, similar to last summer, and last week in, Bahrain. He’s just getting the excuses in early, of why he will lose the h2h this season.

As for Hamilton, he’ll just keep his head down, perform, and look for a drive elsewhere. There’s no amount of experimenting that will save this sinking ship. Allison being bought back is utter desperation. His mind has been on boats, so this is a half hearted return, with none of the structure around him that he was used to a few years back

[organic]

He beat Hamilton in quali, lost our at the start and was undercut twice as Merc pitted Lewis instead of Russell (to protect the lead Merc). Russell didn't do anything wrong on Sunday just that being the Merc that's behind gets you the worse strategy

[RonMexico]

The toys have well and truly been thrown out of the prams by some here.

You would have expected a bit of loyalty to the team that won 7/14 championships in a row.

The theory around Daimler selling their share makes a lot of sense to me.

[AR3-GP]

I can't remember where I originally posted this without providing the source, but the-race has corroborated it:

This is standard practice for all teams, with Mercedes known to have experimented with a more Red Bull-esque geometry of sidepods in CFD and the windtunnel but without generating the numbers needed to commit to a change of direction.

https://the-race.com/formula-1/mercedes ... s-saviour/