2022 Tyres Thread

[Andi76]

Shared best I would say. They had the most floor downforce until TD39 last year, they clearly have the most downforce of any car other than RB and RB had more rear wing. At worst, I wouldn't give RB's floor downforce advantage of more than 0.1s a lap over Ferrari, but I think there are many other things for Ferrari to sort before they can use the car to the fullest - which is masking all of their potential for everyone. After Australia it will be clearer and Baku will show us for good.

La Stampa in Italy speculates that vibrations/bouncing caused by having to lower the car more than planned to get more downforce because the necessary rear wing with more downforce was not available, caused the defects on Leclerc's ECU.

The question now is are they paying too high a price to maximize this floor?
Is an extra hard suspension that is needed to run the car uber low the leading reason for the tire usage issues?

Unfortunately, we don't know, but it is quite possible that the hard suspension is a reason. A hard suspension favors that the contact frequencies become too high. This would cause the compound to harden and stiffen. This could be compensated for with higher temperatures, which soften the rubber. But since the Ferrari drivers complain about too high temperatures that prevent them from pushing at all in the race, I think this is unlikely. However, it is conceivable that the suspension is not stiff enough. This problem is hard to pinpoint and it's quite possible that you develop a new suspension because you think the problems are in the geometry. Especially if you want to drive the car closer to the ground you need a stiff suspension. If you don't get the ride height vs. suspension stiffness set-up right, high tire degradation would be the inevitable result.

Hard to understand why they were not able to hit the ground running with a proper single-pillar RW when all they did was a warm over of last year’s car with the steering rack lowered (to where it should have been last year) and the lower SIS left as is—resulting in the silly little bumps and no development leeway for more undercut—while other teams basically revolutionized their cars.

Which Team has revolutionised their car? Mercedes - no. Red Bull - no. Alpine - no. Alpha Tauri - no. Williams - no. Wait - Alfa - no, sorry. But Aston Martin? No, they basically copied Red Bull with some Ferrari influence. Evolution instead of revolution has always been the way to the top.

At the risk of sounding a bit naive and knowing this is about the RB19;

I can't shake the thought that RB has linked the floor beams to the suspension. They can deform the floor with much higher force tha aero could circumventing stiffness regulations and they can flex it opposing to aero forces.

Rolling in a corner increases the downforce on the outside corner side and reduces the downforce on the inner corner side. This increases the rolling force on the car that needs to be countered with suspension. It also increases the load shift to the outer wheels.

If the suspension is linked to the floor and keeps the floor level while the car rolls, the inner corner tires take more of the load, reducing the load on the outer corner rear wheel. The aero does expert less rolling force, allowing for les stiff suspension setting.

But maybe thats just dumb...

The mechanism you describe sounds a lot like an "anti-roll bar" ?

It really does! Let's call it anti-floor bar! No, seriously - it would make sense by reducing lateral load transfer and thus also bring a big advantage in terms of tires and the floor would have a constant ground clearance. On the other hand, there would be a disadvantage with regard to the floor edges, which could certainly be completely compensated for by optimizing and adapting this concept in the wind tunnel.

Mod edit: personal comment removed

[ing.]

This would cause the compound to harden and stiffen. This could be compensated for with higher temperatures, which soften the rubber.

Are you saying that the rubber compound behaves like metal—applied loads to work harden the compound and heating to temper the compound? I’d be surprised if that’s the case but would be interesting to discover more. Specifically, how do you think this hardening and softening affect thermal degradation and grip?

[aleks_ader]

IDK but tire science is sometimes called dark magic for a reason. Sometimes during tire wars heat cycling could help towards longer stints. Or scrubbing could be also used. IDK how is that with Pirelli nowadays exactly. But rule of thumb was that Pirelli doesn't like such cycles and is normally its optimum to gentle introduce tires into stints inside specific narrow windows.

[aleks_ader]

But still generally Pirelli as i m aware todays doesn't like sliding much. As seems to me ofc. That teams witch can ride kerbs, bumps softly and still keep higher average apex speed without sliding is better. Essentially u can keep total work rate of tire slightly lower. Hence can u run longer stint or in reverse, u can lower target stint time. Depends in what part of race are u on.

[deadhead]

IDK but tire science is sometimes called dark magic for a reason. Sometimes during tire wars heat cycling could help towards longer stints. Or scrubbing could be also used. IDK how is that with Pirelli nowadays exactly. But rule of thumb was that Pirelli doesn't like such cycles and is normally its optimum to gentle introduce tires into stints inside specific narrow windows.

That seems to be what Ferrari have been trying to do since Austria 2022, or at least that was the first time I heard them talk about it on the radio. And that was before the TD, which probably made it worse.

SF23 seems to exhibit similar/sliding behavior to the TD039 F1-75, so it would make sense that they need to approach the stints in the same way. RB19 doesn't have this problem.

[Andi76]

This would cause the compound to harden and stiffen. This could be compensated for with higher temperatures, which soften the rubber.

Are you saying that the rubber compound behaves like metal—applied loads to work harden the compound and heating to temper the compound? I’d be surprised if that’s the case but would be interesting to discover more. Specifically, how do you think this hardening and softening affect thermal degradation and grip?

I made a post last season about contact frequencies and temperatures that hopefully can answear your question:

The mechanism determining a tires actual compound softness when its in action is complex and is only partly to do with the base softness from its ingredients. Tire temperature and the contact frequency(rubbers frequency of contact with the track) are the two other main determiants. These work in opposite directions. As temperature rises the compound becomes softer(you can see this with plasticine). As contact frequencies rises the compound becomes harder. Getting to the point at which the tire achieves its ideal state (vitreous transition) is therefore a delicate balancing act. The higher the contact frequency, the more temperature you need to compensate in order to keep the tire at its intended compound softness. Contact frequency is about how the loads react uppon the rubber. Because rubber is s viscoelastic material, the way it reacts to loads is not consistent. Up to a point the rubber will accept the incoming energy and react against it, trying to spring back in the opposite direction to the load and thereby creating grip. Beyond that point the rubber cannot regain shape quickly enough to absorb the next input of load. This has the effect of stiffening and hardening the compound, breaking the process down and causing the tire to slide. When the compound is overwhelmed in this way its better to get to a harder base compound that will better stand up to the energy fed into it.

This is also the reason why F1 teams usually say - our car works better with the harder tire. Because it is then actually so that when the contact frequencies for the softer tire are too high, the harder tire is comparatively softer for them.

Many people completely underestimate the complexity of this issue and many things play into it. In today's cars, which you want to drive as low as possible on a permanent basis, especially the stiffness of the suspension.

As for hardening and softening in general - you have to know that racing tires are not fully cured. They would otherwise be too hard to have the corresponding performance. In use, the rubber sees mechanical working and time at elevated temperatures very similar to the processes it saw as it was manufactured, in different cycles. What ultimately happens here is nothing other than that the vulcanization process of the tire continues, he gets more cured and becomes harder. This is why the lap times of cars with high degradation also become worse, because the tire practically becomes harder after going through a heat cycle (high temperature in corner, lower temperature on the straight, for example). The so-called ideal operating temperature of a tire is also the temperature at which it does not cure or hardly cures, which in turn is also related to the temperatures during its manufacture and its compound. The described mechanism of hardening(contact frequencies too high) and softening(temperature rise) is also naturally subject to this. As soon as the temperature rises above a certain point (e.g. in a curve) and cools down again (e.g. on a straight line), the tire will become somewhat harder. Working with "more temperature" to make the tire softer only works if it is within the working window of the tire, which is usually 20 to 30 degrees. At higher temperatures, the tire will become harder in this heat cycle and that is ultimately what tire degradation is.

[saviour stivala]

Andi76. MR. Prosit, it's a pleasure reading you, reading someone who knows what he is talking about.

[ing.]

This would cause the compound to harden and stiffen. This could be compensated for with higher temperatures, which soften the rubber.

Are you saying that the rubber compound behaves like metal—applied loads to work harden the compound and heating to temper the compound? I’d be surprised if that’s the case but would be interesting to discover more. Specifically, how do you think this hardening and softening affect thermal degradation and grip?

I made a post last season about contact frequencies and temperatures that hopefully can answear your question:

The mechanism determining a tires actual compound softness when its in action is complex and is only partly to do with the base softness from its ingredients. Tire temperature and the contact frequency(rubbers frequency of contact with the track) are the two other main determiants. These work in opposite directions. As temperature rises the compound becomes softer(you can see this with plasticine). As contact frequencies rises the compound becomes harder. Getting to the point at which the tire achieves its ideal state (vitreous transition) is therefore a delicate balancing act. The higher the contact frequency, the more temperature you need to compensate in order to keep the tire at its intended compound softness. Contact frequency is about how the loads react uppon the rubber. Because rubber is s viscoelastic material, the way it reacts to loads is not consistent. Up to a point the rubber will accept the incoming energy and react against it, trying to spring back in the opposite direction to the load and thereby creating grip. Beyond that point the rubber cannot regain shape quickly enough to absorb the next input of load. This has the effect of stiffening and hardening the compound, breaking the process down and causing the tire to slide. When the compound is overwhelmed in this way its better to get to a harder base compound that will better stand up to the energy fed into it.

This is also the reason why F1 teams usually say - our car works better with the harder tire. Because it is then actually so that when the contact frequencies for the softer tire are too high, the harder tire is comparatively softer for them.

Many people completely underestimate the complexity of this issue and many things play into it. In today's cars, which you want to drive as low as possible on a permanent basis, especially the stiffness of the suspension.

As for hardening and softening in general - you have to know that racing tires are not fully cured. They would otherwise be too hard to have the corresponding performance. In use, the rubber sees mechanical working and time at elevated temperatures very similar to the processes it saw as it was manufactured, in different cycles. What ultimately happens here is nothing other than that the vulcanization process of the tire continues, he gets more cured and becomes harder. This is why the lap times of cars with high degradation also become worse, because the tire practically becomes harder after going through a heat cycle (high temperature in corner, lower temperature on the straight, for example). The so-called ideal operating temperature of a tire is also the temperature at which it does not cure or hardly cures, which in turn is also related to the temperatures during its manufacture and its compound. The described mechanism of hardening(contact frequencies too high) and softening(temperature rise) is also naturally subject to this. As soon as the temperature rises above a certain point (e.g. in a curve) and cools down again (e.g. on a straight line), the tire will become somewhat harder. Working with "more temperature" to make the tire softer only works if it is within the working window of the tire, which is usually 20 to 30 degrees. At higher temperatures, the tire will become harder in this heat cycle and that is ultimately what tire degradation is.

Good discussion on the subject.

[wuzak]

Pirelli have redesigned the front and rear tyres for this season.

The fronts were redesigned to give better front grip, since last year the teams struggled with this.

Could Ferrari have overestimated the extra front grip from the tyres and produced less downforce at the front as a result?

[FW17]

This would cause the compound to harden and stiffen. This could be compensated for with higher temperatures, which soften the rubber.

Are you saying that the rubber compound behaves like metal—applied loads to work harden the compound and heating to temper the compound? I’d be surprised if that’s the case but would be interesting to discover more. Specifically, how do you think this hardening and softening affect thermal degradation and grip?

I made a post last season about contact frequencies and temperatures that hopefully can answear your question:

The mechanism determining a tires actual compound softness when its in action is complex and is only partly to do with the base softness from its ingredients. Tire temperature and the contact frequency(rubbers frequency of contact with the track) are the two other main determiants. These work in opposite directions. As temperature rises the compound becomes softer(you can see this with plasticine). As contact frequencies rises the compound becomes harder. Getting to the point at which the tire achieves its ideal state (vitreous transition) is therefore a delicate balancing act. The higher the contact frequency, the more temperature you need to compensate in order to keep the tire at its intended compound softness. Contact frequency is about how the loads react uppon the rubber. Because rubber is s viscoelastic material, the way it reacts to loads is not consistent. Up to a point the rubber will accept the incoming energy and react against it, trying to spring back in the opposite direction to the load and thereby creating grip. Beyond that point the rubber cannot regain shape quickly enough to absorb the next input of load. This has the effect of stiffening and hardening the compound, breaking the process down and causing the tire to slide. When the compound is overwhelmed in this way its better to get to a harder base compound that will better stand up to the energy fed into it.

This is also the reason why F1 teams usually say - our car works better with the harder tire. Because it is then actually so that when the contact frequencies for the softer tire are too high, the harder tire is comparatively softer for them.

Many people completely underestimate the complexity of this issue and many things play into it. In today's cars, which you want to drive as low as possible on a permanent basis, especially the stiffness of the suspension.

As for hardening and softening in general - you have to know that racing tires are not fully cured. They would otherwise be too hard to have the corresponding performance. In use, the rubber sees mechanical working and time at elevated temperatures very similar to the processes it saw as it was manufactured, in different cycles. What ultimately happens here is nothing other than that the vulcanization process of the tire continues, he gets more cured and becomes harder. This is why the lap times of cars with high degradation also become worse, because the tire practically becomes harder after going through a heat cycle (high temperature in corner, lower temperature on the straight, for example). The so-called ideal operating temperature of a tire is also the temperature at which it does not cure or hardly cures, which in turn is also related to the temperatures during its manufacture and its compound. The described mechanism of hardening(contact frequencies too high) and softening(temperature rise) is also naturally subject to this. As soon as the temperature rises above a certain point (e.g. in a curve) and cools down again (e.g. on a straight line), the tire will become somewhat harder. Working with "more temperature" to make the tire softer only works if it is within the working window of the tire, which is usually 20 to 30 degrees. At higher temperatures, the tire will become harder in this heat cycle and that is ultimately what tire degradation is.

Can teams do any tyre work without track running? do they have a rig for that?

[aleks_ader]

Collect Marbles? But who knows if it is even worth it. I would imagine marbles are chemically changed tho. I would take scraping from tire surface before hits the track. I know teams drill holes in tires to measure its "depth" of thread surface. So there is source of material for you.

Is it theoretically even possible to reverse engineer compound chemistry from small sample even?
And secondly would that be even beneficial. I would be intrigued how precise could u map compound in lab settings. Afterall tire is not just compound but its whole complex system that act as whole.

The construction of the F1 tyre is a matrix of rubber and polymers forming the tread and sidewalls that are tied together with an underlying structure of steel, nylon, polyester and Kevlar bands.

Those systems interact on each other in all dimensions via varied pressures, surface temps, core temp and side flexes. And to top it off tire patch is constantly changing via suspension setup or varied driver inputs even.

So maybe multiple (controlled as possible) data acquisition of track and testing is still the best IMO From that reason i m advocating that active suspension could level playing field even. Because all that knowledge big teams gathered in those tire wars, Pirelli blow-ups with those passive systems are invaluable. Some might even argue most important part of car design.

[Andi76]

Pirelli have redesigned the front and rear tyres for this season.

The fronts were redesigned to give better front grip, since last year the teams struggled with this.

Could Ferrari have overestimated the extra front grip from the tyres and produced less downforce at the front as a result?

This is absolutely possible. I have heard rumors that Ferrari's tire models are not really good and that this is the correlation problem. In addition, shortly after the end of the tire war, Ferrari disbanded its department that was responsible for incorporating the tires and their dynamics into all development areas as early as the design phase. Red Bull has maintained this department even after the tire war, as pretty much the only team. This pays off in several respects and is an incredible advantage. After all, it's the tires that transmit all the forces. Unfortunately, many people underestimate the complexity of this issue. The dynamics of the tires are incredibly complex, as is their integration. The stiffness of the suspension is extremely important (not in terms of tuning, but the stiffness of the suspension itself).

[Andi76]

Andi76. MR. Prosit, it's a pleasure reading you, reading someone who knows what he is talking about.

Thank you very much.

Can teams do any tyre work without track running? do they have a rig for that?

No they cannot. A tire rig of this type is extremely complex and only the tire manufacturers themselves have such sophisticated rigs on which the tires actually "run". Teams have 7/11 post rigs, but these do not serve such purposes but are intended for research and development of dampers etc.. However, their use has been greatly replaced by simulations and these rigs now serve mainly to supplement them. But actually tire rigs have only the tire manufacturers themselves.

[vorticism]

Sutton with some rare images of the 18 in wheels:

[Mike_s]

This would cause the compound to harden and stiffen. This could be compensated for with higher temperatures, which soften the rubber.

Are you saying that the rubber compound behaves like metal—applied loads to work harden the compound and heating to temper the compound? I’d be surprised if that’s the case but would be interesting to discover more. Specifically, how do you think this hardening and softening affect thermal degradation and grip?

I made a post last season about contact frequencies and temperatures that hopefully can answear your question:

The mechanism determining a tires actual compound softness when its in action is complex and is only partly to do with the base softness from its ingredients. Tire temperature and the contact frequency(rubbers frequency of contact with the track) are the two other main determiants. These work in opposite directions. As temperature rises the compound becomes softer(you can see this with plasticine). As contact frequencies rises the compound becomes harder. Getting to the point at which the tire achieves its ideal state (vitreous transition) is therefore a delicate balancing act. The higher the contact frequency, the more temperature you need to compensate in order to keep the tire at its intended compound softness. Contact frequency is about how the loads react uppon the rubber. Because rubber is s viscoelastic material, the way it reacts to loads is not consistent. Up to a point the rubber will accept the incoming energy and react against it, trying to spring back in the opposite direction to the load and thereby creating grip. Beyond that point the rubber cannot regain shape quickly enough to absorb the next input of load. This has the effect of stiffening and hardening the compound, breaking the process down and causing the tire to slide. When the compound is overwhelmed in this way its better to get to a harder base compound that will better stand up to the energy fed into it.

This is also the reason why F1 teams usually say - our car works better with the harder tire. Because it is then actually so that when the contact frequencies for the softer tire are too high, the harder tire is comparatively softer for them.

Many people completely underestimate the complexity of this issue and many things play into it. In today's cars, which you want to drive as low as possible on a permanent basis, especially the stiffness of the suspension.

As for hardening and softening in general - you have to know that racing tires are not fully cured. They would otherwise be too hard to have the corresponding performance. In use, the rubber sees mechanical working and time at elevated temperatures very similar to the processes it saw as it was manufactured, in different cycles. What ultimately happens here is nothing other than that the vulcanization process of the tire continues, he gets more cured and becomes harder. This is why the lap times of cars with high degradation also become worse, because the tire practically becomes harder after going through a heat cycle (high temperature in corner, lower temperature on the straight, for example). The so-called ideal operating temperature of a tire is also the temperature at which it does not cure or hardly cures, which in turn is also related to the temperatures during its manufacture and its compound. The described mechanism of hardening(contact frequencies too high) and softening(temperature rise) is also naturally subject to this. As soon as the temperature rises above a certain point (e.g. in a curve) and cools down again (e.g. on a straight line), the tire will become somewhat harder. Working with "more temperature" to make the tire softer only works if it is within the working window of the tire, which is usually 20 to 30 degrees. At higher temperatures, the tire will become harder in this heat cycle and that is ultimately what tire degradation is.

At the risk of blowing my own trumpet, I have done some work on precisely this and posted some of the results in a thread called 'Tyre compound behaviour' in this forum.
the 'stiffness' of the compound changes with temperature and loadng time, as does the visco-elastic nature of the compound.
You might find the info helpful
Mike