2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

[Zynerji]

Harvesting with K under acceleration is Traction Control.

[saviour stivala]

'How on earth do they charge the batteries?''. 'K' and 'H' between them can charge ES with a maximum of 160hp worth of charge each lap which can be released for just over 33 seconds at each lap. When and if they can achieve that, it is said that they are able to 'deploy' all around the lap, which most have refined the system to be able to do.

[mzso]

Harvesting with K under acceleration is Traction Control.

Not necessarily. Only if it's modulated automatically. Until the output power is determimed by the pedal position it's no different than without it.

[mzso]

Stra8ght-2-d-point and lets keep it simple by leaving potential added confusion out. The gist of the subject = 'K' Harvesting (harvest energy under braking that would otherwise have gone to waste) meaning 'K' harvesting is linked to brake pedal. Any other additional/extra harvesting by the "K' is not allowed. 'K' Deployment = meaning 'K' Deployment is linked to throttle pedal.

So, if both pedals are pressed both can happen, as you said. So the obvious thing to do would be for the drivers to break during acceleration sttategically. Which feels like a human ERS...

[Tommy Cookers]

Harvesting with K under acceleration is Traction Control.🤔

Not necessarily. Only if it's modulated automatically. Until the output power is determined by the pedal position it's no different than without it.

qualitatively it isn't Traction Control - because it hasn't the equipment the FIA defined as constituting TC

quantitatively it is legal - unless without accelerator action PU torque fall with rpm rise exceeds the permitted amount

presumably the flashing light case is a permitted deviation from permitted accelerator demand/rpm/PU torque map
generation as shown if to be by the H seems implausible as there's little energy spare when driving the compressor

[saviour stivala]

Stra8ght-2-d-point and lets keep it simple by leaving potential added confusion out. The gist of the subject = 'K' Harvesting (harvest energy under braking that would otherwise have gone to waste) meaning 'K' harvesting is linked to brake pedal. Any other additional/extra harvesting by the "K' is not allowed. 'K' Deployment = meaning 'K' Deployment is linked to throttle pedal.

So, if both pedals are pressed both can happen, as you said. So the obvious thing to do would be for the drivers to break during acceleration sttategically. Which feels like a human ERS...

Yes In the past when track positions allowed both brake and throttle pedals were used together, but that was a time when maybe only one of the four power unites on the grid could harvest nearer to what is allowed over one lap. Nowadays I don't believe that anybody have the need to do that, as all four power unites are now capable to harvest as well as deploy what is allowed over one lap. Am not saying there is no differences, as some might be better than others on some tracks.

[Zynerji]

Meh. Watching the cars for the last few years, it seems that there are traction-specific strategies of deployment/harvesting. That's what changes with the GPS data if I recall. Tyre strategy almost demands it in a 1 stop race.

Some drivers push that edge where the effect stops (overlap time delta during map transition), like Alonso last weekend.

I think it's fine to be honest. The racing is better if a big mistake just costs a driver a few positions instead of a crash. Having an emergency computer controlled recovery map could also add to safety. Like an AI panic button.

[mzso]

Stra8ght-2-d-point and lets keep it simple by leaving potential added confusion out. The gist of the subject = 'K' Harvesting (harvest energy under braking that would otherwise have gone to waste) meaning 'K' harvesting is linked to brake pedal. Any other additional/extra harvesting by the "K' is not allowed. 'K' Deployment = meaning 'K' Deployment is linked to throttle pedal.

So, if both pedals are pressed both can happen, as you said. So the obvious thing to do would be for the drivers to break during acceleration sttategically. Which feels like a human ERS...

Yes In the past when track positions allowed both brake and throttle pedals were used together, but that was a time when maybe only one of the four power unites on the grid could harvest nearer to what is allowed over one lap. Nowadays I don't believe that anybody have the need to do that, as all four power unites are now capable to harvest as well as deploy what is allowed over one lap. Am not saying there is no differences, as some might be better than others on some tracks.

Yeah, but we're talking about 2026. And with what so far has been said, I see no other way for recovering the amount of energy that might fill the storage.

[Zynerji]

I hope 2030 is a rotating detonation engine feeding 2 mgu-h turbochargers that power front and rear electric motors.

AWD, torque vectoring, synth-fueled turbogenerators. 2016 chassis + halo and 2023ish wings floor and tyres. No batteries. 550kg. Jet sound.

Daydreaming, I know. But all the cool stuff lives there.

[saviour stivala]

So, if both pedals are pressed both can happen, as you said. So the obvious thing to do would be for the drivers to break during acceleration sttategically. Which feels like a human ERS...

Yes In the past when track positions allowed both brake and throttle pedals were used together, but that was a time when maybe only one of the four power unites on the grid could harvest nearer to what is allowed over one lap. Nowadays I don't believe that anybody have the need to do that, as all four power unites are now capable to harvest as well as deploy what is allowed over one lap. Am not saying there is no differences, as some might be better than others on some tracks.

Yeah, but we're talking about 2026. And with what so far has been said, I see no other way for recovering the amount of energy that might fill the storage.

OK, So back to 2026, after all that's where the 'K' harvesting subject originated from, you are not alone wondering where and how would the energy harvested amount allowed will be harvested by the 'k' alone. The triggering of this deviation to the present discution stemmed from the fact of that RBPT project team leader engineer assigned to the 2026 RB PU telling RET that 'E
ICE-TO-K is not allowed and that it will be not allowed in 2026.

[Big Tea]

I hope 2030 is a rotating detonation engine feeding 2 mgu-h turbochargers that power front and rear electric motors.

AWD, torque vectoring, synth-fueled turbogenerators. 2016 chassis + halo and 2023ish wings floor and tyres. No batteries. 550kg. Jet sound.

Daydreaming, I know. But all the cool stuff lives there.

Well you are not going to get close following with that, but angling the 'exhaust' upwards will give good downforce

[Zynerji]

I hope 2030 is a rotating detonation engine feeding 2 mgu-h turbochargers that power front and rear electric motors.

AWD, torque vectoring, synth-fueled turbogenerators. 2016 chassis + halo and 2023ish wings floor and tyres. No batteries. 550kg. Jet sound.

Daydreaming, I know. But all the cool stuff lives there.

Well you are not going to get close following with that, but angling the 'exhaust' upwards will give good downforce

Laminar flow exhaust!!!

[wuzak]

Further explanations as to how the new ERS will work not only linked 'K' to brake pedal, but also it's deployment to the throttle pedal. And that is why that RBPT power unit for 2026 team leader engineer said 'ICE- TO- K' is not allowed and that it will also not be allowed for 2026.

Note that he wasn't the overall PU team leader, but for the team leader for the ICE.

And that he is relatively new to F1, so not much experience with the current generation of PUs.

And, IIRC, he was not up to speed with the recovery/deployment strategies for the hybrid units - that was a different department.

Not also that the 2026 rules allow the output power to be reduced by 450kW under full throttle. Since the MGUK is to be 350kW, either the MGUK goes to 0 and then the ICE reduces 100kW (why would you do that?) or the MGUK goes from 350kW deployment to 100kW recovery somewhere down the straight.

There is also a power ramp specified - it can only reduce by 100kW per second.

[wuzak]

Yeah, but we're talking about 2026. And with what so far has been said, I see no other way for recovering the amount of energy that might fill the storage.

An interesting thing for the 2026 rules is that they are allowed to recover 9MJ, but can only store 4MJ.
4MJ recovery is a around 11.4s.
9MJ recovery is a around 25.7s.

Not many tracks have 25s of hard braking, if any.

A few tracks have straights longer than 11s.

It looks to me that the MGUK will only deploy at full power for short periods - mainly after slow corners, and there will be a lot of recovery at the back end of straights.

I am not sure why they bothered to put the 9MJ recovery per lap in the rules. It seems an unnecessary restriction.

Technically the PU rules must look great to OEMs.

But I have serious doubts as to what it will do for racing.

Will the cars be able to crack 300km/h on straights?
Will overtaking be achieved by having less recovery rather than by outbraking an opponent?

[saviour stivala]

''He (RBPT PU team leader engineer) was not up to speed with recovery and deployment''. Just imagine that, A future power unit team leader project is hired by RBPT while not being up to speed with what he is talking about, surely doesn't bode well for Red Bull forthcoming project. Totally incredible assertions to read on the number one formula one technical forum.