Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[danypons8]

Guys watch the Pat Symonds video viewtopic.php?t=30363. The pre-chamber is in the wall of the main chamber and works as per the Mahle TJI system minus the extra injector in the pre-chamber.

There are 4 engine. Which one he is talking about ?


Can someone translate these?
https://i.ibb.co/QvtY4Z8/img-1370c7c604 ... 155428.jpg

[Hoffman900]

Guys watch the Pat Symonds video viewtopic.php?t=30363. The pre-chamber is in the wall of the main chamber and works as per the Mahle TJI system minus the extra injector in the pre-chamber.

There are 4 engine. Which one he is talking about ?


Can someone translate these?
https://i.ibb.co/QvtY4Z8/img-1370c7c604 ... 155428.jpg

https://ibb.co/ssn5fRv

Top is TJI, bottom is this rapid combustion: TJI/ HCCI / whatever you want to call it hybrid combustion concept, where a shockwave? causes combustion to start at the periphery as well as exit the TJI jets. Just shows the flame propagation. When you take the information of Ferrari using up 5 injection events per cycle /cylinder, you can get a feel for how the fuel is delivered to the chamber prior to being combusted.

Audi started using a Miller Cycle concept in 2015, of which, the current F1 engines are as well.

As for the pistons, you can imagine most of the chamber volume is in a bowl, especially to achieve the rules limited 18:1 geometric compression ratio. Audi in their diesel LeMans engines calls the bowl shape a "Mexican hat" with a central nipple. To quote "this is a key area of development in which we really save fuel". You can read plenty more in this issue:
https://www.highpowermedia.com/Product/ ... -issue-100

I like to think of the current F1 engines as gasoline, spark assisted, Miller Cycle "diesels" than anything. I think that's a pretty fair take.

[Zynerji]

There should be a PU supplier championship. Points collected from top finisher in races, but then are multiplied by your average Fuel/Air ratio.

Teams push for power, PU maker push FA ratio. It would self balance, and show off more tech in a prominant manner.

[Hoffman900]

There should be a PU supplier championship. Points collected from top finisher in races, but then are multiplied by your average Fuel/Air ratio.

Teams push for power, PU maker push FA ratio. It would self balance, and show off more tech in a prominant manner.

Meh.

These engines are super held back. They should just give them a cost cap and some fuel limit (say 100kg for a race) and then just get out of the way.

Really about the only variety we have is a split turbo and a non-split turbo (Ferrari). The latter allows for quicker spooling and less energy consumption due to a smaller turbine, but is more altitude / heat sensitive. Other than that, I'd be most engines are pretty formulaic, just like the V10s and V8s before. There are only so many ways to scratch the rule set. Anyway, that's another discussion.

[Roostfactor]

There should be a PU supplier championship. Points collected from top finisher in races, but then are multiplied by your average Fuel/Air ratio.

Teams push for power, PU maker push FA ratio. It would self balance, and show off more tech in a prominant manner.

Meh.

These engines are super held back. They should just give them a cost cap and some fuel limit (say 100kg for a race) and then just get out of the way.

Really about the only variety we have is a split turbo and a non-split turbo (Ferrari). The latter allows for quicker spooling and less energy consumption due to a smaller turbine, but is more altitude / heat sensitive. Other than that, I'd be most engines are pretty formulaic, just like the V10s and V8s before. There are only so many ways to scratch the rule set. Anyway, that's another discussion.

I like that idea! Just restrict the max fuel allowed (in tank) and let the engine manufacturers/teams specify how its used.
We could see bursts of power at the cost of valuable fuel so would be interesting to see how they would use it.

[organic]

It would work the same as overtake modes worked when engine modes were available. When someone else uses the "overtake" ie deploying more fuel which only ever happens at the beginning of the straight, you use it too to neutralize.. and then it becomes a battle of attrition lap-by-lap until one driver cannot deploy any more boost, and you get an easy, DRS + fuel assisted overtake. In the case of a driver qualifying out of position it would just aid a driver trying to move back up the order, making passing much slower cars even easier: they won't fight it anyway, and even moreso if your pace advantage seems insurmountable (by being able to use the extra boost).

In your head it might sound good but teams will deploy it such that it ends up neutralizing the fun

[Roostfactor]

It would work the same as overtake modes worked when engine modes were available. When someone else uses the "overtake" ie deploying more fuel which only ever happens at the beginning of the straight, you use it too to neutralize.. and then it becomes a battle of attrition lap-by-lap until one driver cannot deploy any more boost, and you get an easy, DRS + fuel assisted overtake. In the case of a driver qualifying out of position it would just aid a driver trying to move back up the order, making passing much slower cars even easier: they won't fight it anyway, and even moreso if your pace advantage seems insurmountable (by being able to use the extra boost).

In your head it might sound good but teams will deploy it such that it ends up neutralizing the fun

Understood. They still have the overtake option now. But if this were to be allowed you would introduce a fuel saving strategy along with the current energy saving strategy. Would potentially allow more tuning freedom between the 2 new strats for more optimization choices.
A great idea and one that doesn't cost more money physically for components but does cost much time on development.

[Roostfactor]

It would work the same as overtake modes worked when engine modes were available. When someone else uses the "overtake" ie deploying more fuel which only ever happens at the beginning of the straight, you use it too to neutralize.. and then it becomes a battle of attrition lap-by-lap until one driver cannot deploy any more boost, and you get an easy, DRS + fuel assisted overtake. In the case of a driver qualifying out of position it would just aid a driver trying to move back up the order, making passing much slower cars even easier: they won't fight it anyway, and even moreso if your pace advantage seems insurmountable (by being able to use the extra boost).

In your head it might sound good but teams will deploy it such that it ends up neutralizing the fun

But total fuel tank capacity stays as is so if you choose to burn up your fuel reserves early to get to the front, you wouldn't have the reserve fuel to prevent the patient driver from using their reserve toward the end of the race.

[saviour stivala]

2022 overtake button (overtake, defend or used in qualifying) when pressed it will deploy all energy stored in ES. Meaning no changes to ICE settings, fuel and all.

[Tommy Cookers]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjrNcuc89Pc
The guy in this video claims .....

I don't really put much stock into what this guy says, about anything. Never really been a fan.....

IMO
he in the video is wrong about the fuel and wrong about the power and (like some past posts made on this site) ....

he assumes wrongly that NA 1 bar MAP gives 100% VE - (actually tuned length inlet and exhaust give 120% VE)
so his predicted MAP & AFR for the F1 engine are wrong

though yes the actual VE/MAP ratio will anyway be reduced due to the Millerised valve timing
usefully this lowers the compression work, which would be high due to the unusually high AFR/lambda

such high lambda gives much lower heat energy removal to coolant

[Hoffman900]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjrNcuc89Pc
The guy in this video claims .....

I don't really put much stock into what this guy says, about anything. Never really been a fan.....

IMO
he in the video is wrong about the fuel and wrong about the power and (like some past posts made on this site) ....

he assumes wrongly that NA 1 bar MAP gives 100% VE - (actually tuned length inlet and exhaust give 120% VE)
so his predicted MAP & AFR for the F1 engine are wrong

though yes the actual VE/MAP ratio will anyway be reduced due to the Millerised valve timing
usefully this lowers the compression work, which would be high due to the unusually high AFR/lambda

such high lambda gives much lower heat energy removal to coolant

The NHRA Pro-Stock engines were near 130% VE when they weren’t rules restricted on the gas and rev limit (they imposed both and then spec’ed an old fashion EFI system). Not bad for a carbureted 2 valve pushrod engine, granted, they don’t stay together very long.

But +1 to everything.

[KAIZEN]

Let's put an end to the TJI controversy.
F1 injectors are on the exhaust side.
In a Japanese magazine, Honda has published details of the RA621H.






The injector is coupled to the common rail.
Even Ferrari has been on the exhaust side since the beginning.

[Sasha]

Injectors on the exhaust side.
I thought everyone knew that since 2017???!!!

Honda's big upgrade for the 2021 season ( Wazari) uses the Mt Fuji PC that is on the piston crown.

Some here was asking is the PC on the exhaust side and using the exhaust valves cutouts in the piston crown as compression ignition and the jet flames ignition on the intake side.
I don't know but interesting

[PlatinumZealot]

I'm surprised that you gentlemen are discussing thing already discussed in depth 2 years ago in this very thread. Even the same images. But a good movie can be watched more than once I guess.

[PlatinumZealot]

Some lovely official shots of the RA621H recently posted on Honda's media website.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments ... 8001H.jpg

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments ... 8002H.jpg

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments ... 8003H.jpg

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments ... 8004H.jpg

The engine charge air bypass pipes to the turbine are interesting. They end at that poppet valve near the turbine. I realize now that it's only active when the exhaust manifold pressure is lower than the charge air pressure, and this is the minority of the time.

Since blowing off directly to the atmosphere is not allowed, I am guessing they function as a waste gate in E-boost mode. Not much other times exhaust back pressure is lower than charge air pressure.