2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

[wuzak]

Not physically impossible for weight, at all.
And I was just after the smaller cars.

550kg would be impossible due to improved safety features (including the Halo, SIPS, just stronger chassis) and bigger wheels.

They did miss an opportunity to reduce the weight of the power unit.

Also, is that 550kg without driver? Which would be 630kg with driver, or around the same as the V10 and pre-kers V8 era

I was more calculating the loss of the ICE, transmission, Batteries, and most of the fuel. Radiators, intercoolers, wiring harness and liquid oil/coolant would be 90% reduced as well. Adding 1 turbo and a 150mm wide tube for RDE combustion while also reducing the plan-form of the car should easily knock off 250kg, I estimate.

The PU weighs 150kg.

The ES weighs 30kg.

Not sure about gearbox and ancillaries.

Your RDE will not be weightless.

You will need a generator on the RDE which won't be weightless.

The RDE will need to be more efficient than the current ICE (unlikely) if it is to use less fuel. Unless it has less power, which means that you will need a battery to store recovered energy so that it can be deployed on demand (I assume the RDE will be at constant speed/power, as they will not be as responsive to power demand as the current ICE).

And you will need drive motors.

2026 MGUK is to be 350kW and minimum 16kg. There also has to be a reduction gear to connect to the engine. That has a minimum weight of 4kg. But that only has to get the speed down to the ICE speed (~10,000rpm), yours will have to get down to wheel speed (~400rpm @ 350kph).

And you will need 2 of them, at least.

You won't need engine radiator and intercooler, but you would still need coolers for the motors, battery and control electronics.

I don't think you'd save 250kg. Maybe 100kg, if you're lucky!

Edit: Corrected the minimum weight of the MGUK transmission.

[Zynerji]

550kg would be impossible due to improved safety features (including the Halo, SIPS, just stronger chassis) and bigger wheels.

They did miss an opportunity to reduce the weight of the power unit.

Also, is that 550kg without driver? Which would be 630kg with driver, or around the same as the V10 and pre-kers V8 era

I was more calculating the loss of the ICE, transmission, Batteries, and most of the fuel. Radiators, intercoolers, wiring harness and liquid oil/coolant would be 90% reduced as well. Adding 1 turbo and a 150mm wide tube for RDE combustion while also reducing the plan-form of the car should easily knock off 250kg, I estimate.

The PU weighs 150kg.

The ES weighs 30kg.

Not sure about gearbox and ancillaries.

Your RDE will not be weightless.

You will need a generator on the RDE which won't be weightless.

The RDE will need to be more efficient than the current ICE (unlikely) if it is to use less fuel. Unless it has less power, which means that you will need a battery to store recovered energy so that it can be deployed on demand (I assume the RDE will be at constant speed/power, as they will not be as responsive to power demand as the current ICE).

And you will need drive motors.

2026 MGUK is to be 350kW and minimum 16kg. There also has to be a reduction gear to connect to the engine. That has a minimum weight of 20kg. But that only has to get the speed down to the ICE speed (~10,000rpm), yours will have to get down to wheel speed (~400rpm @ 350kph).

And you will need 2 of them, at least.

You won't need engine radiator and intercooler, but you would still need coolers for the motors, battery and control electronics.

I don't think you'd save 250kg. Maybe 100kg, if you're lucky!

Meh. Still a passenger worth of weight to ditch, awd, and an engine never raced before.

You have a great imagination, Wuzak.

[gruntguru]

You have a great imagination, Wuzak.

Yeah Wuzak - stop dreaming - detonation engines are coming to F1.

[wuzak]

Meh. Still a passenger worth of weight to ditch, awd, and an engine never raced before.

You have a great imagination, Wuzak.

So what are your numbers?

What power will the RDE provide?
Will it be constant speed/output?
What will it weigh?

What size and weight is the generator?

What size and weight for the drive motors?
What power for the drive motors?

Typically series hybrids have engine and generator of much less power then the peak drive motor power. The peak power is produced using power from both the generator and the battery.

So what size battery is required? The current size battery will not provide a very long period at maximum power.

What ancillaries will be required? Cooling?

[wuzak]

You have a great imagination, Wuzak.

Yeah Wuzak - stop dreaming - detonation engines are coming to F1.

What even are detonation engines?

Are they like pulse jet engines?

[Tommy Cookers]

What even are detonation engines?

aren't current F1 engines (spark-assisted) detonation engines ?
and they already have a power recovery turbine in the gas stream

don't piston engines give better heat-to-work conversion than continuous combustion engines give ?

[mzso]

Adding 1 turbo and a 150mm wide tube for RDE combustion while also reducing the plan-form of the car should easily knock off 250kg, I estimate.

You did also say "that power front and rear electric motors." Electric motors/generators have a lot of weight. And you need to have them double, for generation and for traction.

No generation on wheel motors (no batteries). Someone (YASA) Has recently launched 450hp flat electric motors. One in front and rear driven by each MGUH should give plenty of power for a 600ishKG weight.

600kg for the motors?
I'm gonna assume you meant 60. In any way you need twice as much to begin with, because you need to generate the electricity from the engine so that's 120kg. And I don't think a high power/temperature ICE (detonation engine or not) will be much smaller than 100kg. Plus cooling for motors/engine another 50kg(?) maybe. So that's 200-270kg just for power. Not counting fuel.

[Big Tea]

You have a great imagination, Wuzak.

Yeah Wuzak - stop dreaming - detonation engines are coming to F1.

What even are detonation engines?

Are they like pulse jet engines?

Without the pulse

[mzso]

What even are detonation engines?

Are they like pulse jet engines?

Yeah... A lot like V-1 bombs:

Without the pulse

It seems to me, pretty much with the pulse for a rotating detonation engine. Only the pulses go around in a circle

But I fail to see how are they even viable for hybridization. They exclusively produce thrust, by the looks of it. Don't have shafts like jet engines through which power can be transferred, via mechanical rotation. Just cyclical rocket engines. How would you produce power from supersonic airflow, that's pulsed to make matters worse?

[vorticism]

Correct, they are intended as rocket engines to produce thrust. Their potential advantage in rocketry is in combustion efficiency due to supersonic combustion (detonation). Zynerji is saying to use them as a gas generator for an MGUH. Would have to run the numbers on them for such a purpose. No moving parts, so lightweight, but would require a pressurized fuel source.

[wuzak]

You did also say "that power front and rear electric motors." Electric motors/generators have a lot of weight. And you need to have them double, for generation and for traction.

No generation on wheel motors (no batteries). Someone (YASA) Has recently launched 450hp flat electric motors. One in front and rear driven by each MGUH should give plenty of power for a 600ishKG weight.

600kg for the motors?
I'm gonna assume you meant 60. In any way you need twice as much to begin with, because you need to generate the electricity from the engine so that's 120kg. And I don't think a high power/temperature ICE (detonation engine or not) will be much smaller than 100kg. Plus cooling for motors/engine another 50kg(?) maybe. So that's 200-270kg just for power. Not counting fuel.

A 1L three cylinder turbo, based around the current style V6s, should be below 100kg and produce around 400kW. Maybe 80 or 90kg.

Running it as a generator for a series hybrid you can run them at constant rpm, and have the turbocharger mechanically linked to the engine as a turbo compound.

16kg (minimum) for 350kW motors for 2026 PU regulations. So two of them - one front, one rear, would give 700kW (938hp) for around 32kg, not including cables, and controllers.

Alternatively, an option would be for a 3 motor setup, like in many performance EVs. One at the front, two at the rear. Make them smaller at 250kW and have a total output of 750kW (1,005hp).

Power t the wheels from the battery could be restricted to 350kW, as per the 2026 rules, with the rest coming from a generator on the ICE. So improving the ICE would still give an advantage.

[Zynerji]

RDE can be as small as 2-3cm wide.



The original thought was to retrofit one into the center cartridge of a turbo charger to make a self-contained axial turbo that then spins a MGU-H.

Sorry folks. I read lots of tech articles. Part of how my mind works is taking unconnected parts of dis-similar systems and recombining them into new arrangements.

The MGU->Impeller->RDE (stationary, holds shaft fluid bearing) ->Exducer shaft arrangement has been on my mind for a bit for it's power, size and efficiency.

This is the only way I've come up with to harness it in a car or for a home generator, and it makes me daydream of Jet power in F1.

[Zynerji]

Correct, they are intended as rocket engines to produce thrust. Their potential advantage in rocketry is in combustion efficiency due to supersonic combustion (detonation). Zynerji is saying to use them as a gas generator for an MGUH. Would have to run the numbers on them for such a purpose. No moving parts, so lightweight, but would require a pressurized fuel source.

Liquid Propane

[Hoffman900]

Correct, they are intended as rocket engines to produce thrust. Their potential advantage in rocketry is in combustion efficiency due to supersonic combustion (detonation). Zynerji is saying to use them as a gas generator for an MGUH. Would have to run the numbers on them for such a purpose. No moving parts, so lightweight, but would require a pressurized fuel source.

Liquid Propane

I think you’re just throwing ideas around without any regard with how they would work with each other, tbh, or within the scope of what F1 is for the manufacturers.

It’s like those sci-fi technology cutaway drawings on how “an X-wing works” or a “the inner workings of a light saber”.

[Tommy Cookers]

a free-piston engine with linear MG ?