Was the Mercedes power unit dominant?

[mzivtins]

Burning less fuel and having more power thanks to TJI was the unfair advantage merc had.

But why were the other customer teams not as competitive, did the works engines come with a different spec ignition system?

[ValeVida46]

For 2014? Yes. After that, not so much.

Where we had all the Mercedes customer teams at the top of the leaderboard it supports the dominant PU.

When that wasn't the case anymore it suggests that it wasn't the PU that was the cause of the dominance.

Were you aware that Mercedes customer teams were not allowed to use the higher performance modes?

https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comme ... _100_sure/

Regarding the 2015 season, Former Lotus CEO:

During our cooperation, Mercedes managed the engine. They decided what mode you were going on, they could block driver changes on the steering wheel to protect the engine, too high temperatures, etc. "- said Carter. Asked if such a thing could still be possible, he replied: "At 100%. I have no doubt about it that they give other engine modes. When Romain won the podium for Spa [2015], Mercedes had to give him something more, because they did not want Vettel to overtake him and win the podium. And they admitted it after the race, they said why they did it. Romain came to me later and said: this car has never been so good. Because if you have a faster car, aero works better, you can heat your tires faster, you can brake later

I read on F1fanatic that the cost of supply to a customer to Mercedes customers was exorbitant in the first 2 years.
Part production was bottlenecked by the fact Mercedes had to supply 4 teams in the biggest and most expensive engine rule change in history. Their were also constraints placed on the factory team too.
So customers got base modes over the factory team because the modes were made in conjunction with the team on the premise of longevity and maintenance, with schedules varying according to each car and the mileage it's done as well as a host of factors which vary in different team cars, such as installation and cooling, airbox flow etc... something that is often forgotten when there are suggestions the team should give their modes to others for free.
Why should they and how would you implement it without putting stress into the supply side in case of failures?
Does HPE take the factory team modes and hand them out? Not sure that would be right.


A case in point is that all the teams Merc supplied were invited to Brixworth to open an office and devise their own maps in accordance with the longevity and maintenance schedules prescribed. McLaren declined, Force India and Williams accepted, and Lotus were only going to have the engine for 1 season and then revert to Renault so this was never an option for Lotus.
If the team gave permission for one team to use their mode, that's down to the team and not Brixworth who firewalled modes.
"Phase documents" were given to each team and were the same for each team. Stipulating how hard an engine can be run. The software and hardware were all identical, so it literally was down to the mode, which in turn was down to the team using the engine.

[mrluke]

Chart show constructors points for all of the teams except for Mercedes, Ferrari and Redbull.

Grey/black are Mercedes teams
Red is Ferrari
Yellow is Renault
Orange is Honda

Sorry my colour selection is awful.

Anyway Mercedes teams are well clear in 2014, less in 2015 and by 2018 all teams are pretty even.
2018 onwards, Renault and Honda bump up the leaderboard with Mercedes to the tail end.
Ferrari get some resurgance in 2018/19 but plummet in 2020.

There's not really enough data points but the trend between Mercedes dropping and Renault/Honda building is pretty defined.

Yes there are lots of things that determine final team performance. But the Mercedes teams went from top constructors to bottom constructors.

So as per my earlier comment, start of the period Mercedes PU was definitely dominant but over time this reduced. Mercedes definitely had a dominant package but I wouldn't say it was purely down to the PU otherwise we would still see Williams and Force India occupying top positions.

[jaspervvelden]

It used to be, but right now Mercedes isn't really doing well.
https://racing.nl/mercedes-ontevreden-verbetering/

[JordanMugen]

For 2014? Yes. After that, not so much.

Certainly Ferrari somewhat caught up in 2015, however were not Red Bull Racing's Renault units still up to 70-80hp down on power as late as 2017?

Mercedes were within their rights to allocate the ex-Lotus customer Mercedes supply to Manor instead of Red Bull Racing in 2016, however I maintain that was both an unsporting and uneconomic decision given Manor Racing could not even afford to pay for them and went bankrupt, whereas Red Bull Racing would have paid on time and in full.

This one decision almost certainly reduced the competitiveness of Formula 1 racing over an extended time period and likely significantly hampered the efforts of Red Bull Racing, Newey and co, Verstappen and Ricciardo who perhaps otherwise could have scored a significantly greater number of race victories during the late 2010s.

Quite the contrast to Colin Chapman graciously, if begrudgingly, making the superb Cosworth DFV available to everyone including worrisome rivals capable of beating Team Lotus without ongoing exclusivity.

Mercedes definitely had a dominant package but I wouldn't say it was purely down to the PU otherwise we would still see Williams and Force India occupying top positions.

Don't forget Red Bull Racing being refused the Mercedes customer supply from 2016 onwards however. If the Renault unit had parity with Mercedes and it would make little difference, why would Mercedes be unhappy to receive this customer supply revenue?

Strangely Mercedes preferred to supply an insolvent team who went bankrupt and therefore did not receive the revenue for those customer power units in any case!

[AR3-GP]

So as per my earlier comment, start of the period Mercedes PU was definitely dominant but over time this reduced. Mercedes definitely had a dominant package but I wouldn't say it was purely down to the PU otherwise we would still see Williams and Force India occupying top positions.

What happens if you take your data set and normalize the points scored by the budgets?

I imagine that would show some interesting trends as well. Specifically that when comparing teams with like for like budgets, the Mercedes PU was a decisive advantage.

Therefore the real comparisons are MB vs Ferrari vs RB, and then Force India/Williams vs Renault, Mclaren, AT, etc.

[PlatinumZealot]

The engine was not dominant enough to bring backmarker teams to the front. You still needed decent downforce to beat more competitive chassis.

We see this year that a competitive chassis can be 1.5 seconds a lap faster than the next car.

Mercedes were at times 2 seconda a lap faster. How much was chassis and how much was the engine?

[AR3-GP]

The engine was not dominant enough to bring backmarker teams to the front. You still needed decent downforce to beat more competitive chassis.

We see this year that a competitive chassis can be 1.5 seconds a lap faster than the next car.

Mercedes were at times 2 seconda a lap faster. How much was chassis and how much was the engine?

Which teams are you comparing to?

Should Williams and Alpha Tauri with 100 million dollar budgets have been expected to have a chassis anywhere near as good as Mercedes?

That is why I proposed that one normalizes the analysis by the budgets.

[ChrisF1]

The engine was not dominant enough to bring backmarker teams to the front. You still needed decent downforce to beat more competitive chassis.

We see this year that a competitive chassis can be 1.5 seconds a lap faster than the next car.

Mercedes were at times 2 seconda a lap faster. How much was chassis and how much was the engine?

1) Where were Williams in 2014 compared to 2013? A season of 12th-16th place finishes, and 9th in the standings followed by 9 podiums and 3rd in the standings.

As power parity began to return, Williams returned to where they had been.

2) The customer teams didn't have full power as confirmed by Lotus in 2015.

So it was a hell of a lot of engine.

[Juzh]

manor gained like 2-3s just by switching from ferrari to mercedes in 2016

[Polite]

Burning less fuel and having more power thanks to TJI was the unfair advantage merc had.

But why were the other customer teams not as competitive, did the works engines come with a different spec ignition system?

the weird advantage was burning oil.

[ValeVida46]

1) Where were Williams in 2014 compared to 2013? A season of 12th-16th place finishes, and 9th in the standings followed by 9 podiums and 3rd in the standings.

As power parity began to return, Williams returned to where they had been.

2) The customer teams didn't have full power as confirmed by Lotus in 2015.

So it was a hell of a lot of engine.

1)For 2014 it was a dominant engine. But by 2016 it was the best but not by margins of dominance, as outlined by your own measurement of comparing Williams year on year.

2) Lotus couldn't spend money developing engine modes with Mercedes Brixworth as they were cash strapped and required a bail out too if memory serves.
Every team had to develop their own engine mode and have it comply with Mercedes Phase-document.
Brixworth has offices for the customer teams to devise their own in accordance with their cars. Mercedes the team own the maps they develop, it's not HPP that has authority to give it out.
Which also explains why Mercedes the team allowed it's use for Grosjean to defend against Vettel, right or wrong.

[djones]

Burning less fuel and having more power thanks to TJI was the unfair advantage merc had.

But why were the other customer teams not as competitive, did the works engines come with a different spec ignition system?

the weird advantage was burning oil.

I think that is a theory that has no real evidence at all to back it up.

There is actually more evidence to suggest it was other teams such as Ferrari who had a special second oil tank.

[AR3-GP]

Burning less fuel and having more power thanks to TJI was the unfair advantage merc had.

But why were the other customer teams not as competitive, did the works engines come with a different spec ignition system?

the weird advantage was burning oil.

I think that is a theory that has no real evidence at all to back it up.

There is actually more evidence to suggest it was other teams such as Ferrari who had a special second oil tank.

Surely you're joking. Mercedes was burning oil.

[NL_Fer]

2014-2016 Mercedes power was definitly dominant. Although Ferrari already catched up in 2015 and Renault 2016 wasn’t that bad. Ferrari really started to rival Mercedes in 2017 till 2019 when they were caught with their pants down. Mercedes 2020 was pretty marginal, only the party mode was more powerfull, but they had to switch it off immediatly after passing the line on qualifing.