Ferrari SF23

[dialtone]

Does anyone have post race tyre pictures of Ferrari and RBR?

[Andi76]

You use the term "off the mark". Where is your evidence for your detailed claim?
As usual when i see some evidence or data that the team's performance engineer doesn't have but you do then maybe what you say has some credence. But so far if you look on what you wrote, it's speculation. I do not think anything has changed will last year's car to this year's.
Same problem of pushing too hard.

Are you serious? I told you what my evidence is - what the drivers said on the radio, as well as what virtually every Ferrari engineer except Clear (and he said that BEFORE the race in Bahrain, his opinion after the race was certainly different) said, and also Vasseur. In addition, every channel, whether Sky or F1TV brings evaluations of the lap times in long runs of practice and race. Even here in the forum are tens of such data, which prove without any doubt the tire problems... I have listed my evidence more than clearly and the data and statements are anyway familiar to everyone who follows Formula 1... what I find amusing is honestly still that you say it is obvious that Ferrari lacks downforce simply because you conclude it, but you doubt things that are proven beyond doubt by data in every F1 broadcast, by statements of drivers, team bosses and every technician. And even in this thread you can find enough data. So I would say - let's leave this discussion here, because it is more than obvious that this is a case of - I believe what fits into my worldview and what is clearly proven I don't care. And finally everyone can make up his own mind about what you say here and what I say and what is proven and what is not.

every other Ferrari engineer --- who exactly?
Jock Clear after Bahrain.... did not see him say anything after the race.
Vasseur .. not the race engineer, and seems clueless about the team at this stage and mostly speculates.
Sky F1.. speculates just as we do here on f1 tech. They are not on the team.
Tens of data on tyres on F1T? I never see anyone here with tyre data, worse comparing tyre data across teams.

Ferrari lacks downforce, not because I conclude it, but because Jock Clear does, and team, it has no front end. Also the lap time data shows where redbull gains on Ferrari. So I can say the car has less downforce. I just do not have the evidence to describe the mechanisms of anything on the car.

And agree, anyone can make up his mind. But that means you have no grounds to determine if someone elses suggestions is "off the mark".
As far as I am aware, Ferrari have not released any data on their tyre usage, neither is any engineer quoted on such.
They have commented on the front end and simply lack of load and balance on the car compared to redbull.
We see on the lap traces as well where the grip falls away and the gap widens to redbull.

That is already completely wrong. Jock Clear said that BEFORE the race in Bahrain! And let me get this straight - you're telling me that Jock Clear's statement made BEFORE the race in Bahrain that Ferrari has no problems with tire degradation is correct, even though both Sainz and Leclerc said in the race they could go faster but they can't push because immediately the tires overheat? And that Clears statement is correct, although it was proven wrong in the race? And that you can generally observe on every longrun and in every race how high the degradation is at Ferrari? And that Vasseur has no idea, but is completely clueless as a team manager and trained engineer? And consequently also that all the statements of the other teams, of Helmut Marko, Toto Wolf who say Ferrari suffers from extreme tire degradation are also wrong?

I'm sorry, but I think if you do some research you will find enough statements from the 2022 French GP to today where Binotto, Mekkies and others have said that Ferrari has a problem with high tire degradation. I honestly don't want to waste my time proving something that is common knowledge and everyone knows anyway. Also if it would only be about Downforce - Alfa, or other teams who definetely have less downforce than Ferrari must also have tire problems according to your theory. Why does Alfa not have any tire problems? They have a different suspension. Camber stiffness, toe stiffness and vertical stiffness are very important here and having problems in that regard (what is very hard to detect) can cause tire problems.

And I can very well say that what someone said is "off the mark" if what he says turns out to be completely wrong a few hours later.

And there is just as much data here as for your downforce theory. Because the drop of the lap times says here just as much as the lap traces and who where how much time loses over the downforce. Probably even more.

But let's just end this. You think that everybody is wrong or has no idea, Vasseur, Marko, Sainz, Leclerc, Wolff, Shovlin, Hamilton up to all the experts and people from all the other teams who say, supported by data from longruns and races, that Ferrari has problems with tire degradation. And that this one statement from Clear before the race in Bahrain is correct. It's ok for me, it's your right. But it is also my right not to do so. For said reasons.

[hollus]

Both of you, please stop. Here and now. It is off topic and spamming the thread.

[Sevach]

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/the- ... /10447094/

[LM10]

#AMuS Michael Schmidt:

Ferrari is not questioning their concept. They want to continue the development.

The problem I see with Ferrari is that they don't make the best use of their package. It will take time for them to understand how to get the most potential out of it.

You get the impression that the SF-23 could do more, but Ferrari is not able to bring it out. If you look at the lap times in qualifying, they are not bad.

Ferrari's preparation is currently only about the race, the drivers can never focus on quali and then suddenly find themselves in front of a car they have never driven before, but despite that, Charles Leclerc drives sensationally.

At the moment Ferrari isn‘t able to make a car equally strong for qualifying and the race. And even in races there are performance differences in which set of tyres is used (in Jeddah: good on softs, bad on hard).

[S D]

So they tested new floor at practice in Jeddah, confirm everything works and correlation is right and then just shelved it ? Why ?

Is it not entirely possible that they tested the floor and found that it is the right direction to go, or that they need to make some further adjustments.

In spite of that, you can't just put in a new floor without taking into consideration the rest of the car. Perhaps they need to tweak other components, ie FW, RW, ride height, rake, front and rear suspension, brake ducts, etc etc etc. to make it work properly.

Doesn't it depend on what that new floor is expected to provide compared to the current floor? This may just be a future direction that would not mesh with the current configuration.

Any thoughts anyone?

[Sevach]

I think it was in 2021 that they tested a floor and held back because they didn't have one for both drivers.
It's a less interesting possibility but it might be the case here.

[FDD]

According to Alberto and Werner the main problem is that they (Ferrari) can not work the bottom as they intended, ride height with bad managing of the vortices and sealing the bottom.
Alberto said that at least 3 to 4 races are needed to solve the problem.
I read somewhere (maybe here) that they manage to "run" the car in the simulator as on the track i.e. they found the correlation, if is that right then it is a big step forward.
EDIT: They also stressed that the concept is absolutely right.

[SuperCNJ]

According to Alberto and Werner the main problem is that they (Ferrari) can not work the bottom as they intended, ride height with bad managing of the vortices and sealing the bottom.
Alberto said that at least 3 to 4 races are needed to solve the problem.
I read somewhere (maybe here) that they manage to "run" the car in the simulator as on the track i.e. they found the correlation, if is that right then it is a big step forward.
EDIT: They also stressed that the concept is absolutely right.

Well if that is the case then there is a glimmer of hope. The last thing we want to hear is them questioning their concept. It would be interesting to see where exactly they have lost time from last year's car or gained the least.

[Vanja #66]

According to Alberto and Werner the main problem is that they (Ferrari) can not work the bottom as they intended, ride height with bad managing of the vortices and sealing the bottom.
Alberto said that at least 3 to 4 races are needed to solve the problem.
I read somewhere (maybe here) that they manage to "run" the car in the simulator as on the track i.e. they found the correlation, if is that right then it is a big step forward.
EDIT: They also stressed that the concept is absolutely right.

Aligned with previous reports and what is happening on track. They may have changed too many things for this year. Internal affairs and staff reshuffling aren't doing any favours of course...

[FDD]

The unreliable Franco Nugnes ! ! !
"Fred Vasseur is betting on the potential of the SF-23: the data collected in Jeddah testify that the right set-up to exploit the aerodynamics of the red has not yet been found. There is no downforce and the single-seater is unable to turn grazing the asphalt as it was designed in the wind tunnel so it loses load and sends the tires into crisis. While looking for set-up solutions, a mechanical solution is also being studied which could help find that balance that is missing.
The focus is on aerodynamics, but there is also talk of a change to the rear suspension."

[Andi76]

Two interesting articles about Ferrari's problems which fit to this and would result in a coherent overall picture also in relation to what Alberto and Werner say . The first one says that Ferrari can't drive the SF-23 as low as it was designed to go. Therefore, as was the case in 2022 after the introduction of the TD39, the Ferrari has to be driven outside its actual working window. Ferrari is said to work on a new rear suspension for the SF-23:

https://scuderiafans.com/f1-ferrari-new ... solutions/

In the second article Sainz talks about Ferrari's wrong decisions for Saudi Arabia regarding the choice of downforce/drag level and explains that downforce or drag is not Ferrari's problem, but it was simply a wrong decision. He states that race pace and high tire degradation is the problem with the SF-23 and some sensitivity the car has in the corners.

https://scuderiafans.com/carlos-sainz-r ... ne-threat/

[organic]

How can they make the same wrong decision in terms of drag/downforce level at Jeddah two years in a row

[Vanja #66]

Firstly, the difference in drag isn't big and wasn't detrimental, neither in the race nor qulay. No idea what Sainz is on about... Probably shedding blame on the team when he should look at his own results.

Second, they had to test the wing in the race asap since they haven't tested it in Bahrain - where they should have. Last year no team knew what others will bring when they were preparing for the first couple of races, same goes for Ferrari.

[JPBD1990]

As far as new rear suspension goes - it seems to be the great Ferrari unicorn. We heard about new rear suspension coming for the F1-75 several times last season. First it was coming at Silverstone, then after the summer break. As far as I’m aware, the mythical suspension never came? Now we’re back to bringing more mythical rear suspension.

Honestly the amount of rumour and conjecture around Ferrari at the moment is so overwhelming it’s impossible to know which ways up. I’ll believe it when I see it.