Is the W14 really that bad?

[typhson_lee]

So, new thread, because it neither fit's in the cars thread, nor the car comparison thread nor the Team thread.
(Or maybe it does, then please move this post (-: )

To start the discussion, a small rant by me (Don't take it to seriously) (:

What I want this thread to be, is a comparison of all the Mercedes powered cars (and to a lesser extent teams). So McLaren, Williams, Aston Martin and Mercedes.
What's their performance now, were are they comming from, what's their cars concept, from which concept do they come?
And what's their performance and their progress (to different things!)

When I'm looking into this forum (also in other media) I see a lot of statements along the lines: Mercedes car is not working at all and they got their concept completly wrong. This suprises me, because they are not that much slower than Aston Martin and much faster than McLaren and Williams.

In fair assesment in the performance/progress categories for me would be: Mercedes progress is low, maybe they just got the loss from rule changes back, but their performance general is still more or less on the same level as Aston Martins. The impressive thing is to me, the step Aston did, so their performance considering where their coming from.
So AM progress great, Mercedes progress not so much. Performance, both pretty much the same, AM slightly faster.

Basically the same for McLaren and Willimas. I'm in interested in your opinion on the performance/progress of these to teams. And McLaren vs Aston Martin, since they were on the same level last year.

I feel like people are coming from the first hybrid era, where Mercedes was dominating everything and think or expect, this is somehow the natural order. Mercedes should just be better than everybody else. So Mercedes not 0.5s faster than the rest, means something went wrong.
A theory by me is they just outspend everybody in that era and while developing the first hybrid power trains? If you got information or an opinion on that, please share (:
If that is true, I further would say, compared to Ferrari and RedBull, Mercedes didn't adapt to the cost cap as well as these two teams. Distinguish between what's important and what not, and set the teams structure up in a way that it can do these important things as good as possible.

[PlatinumZealot]

No it's not. It's a good car but the team expected it to be fighting RedBull.

[organic]

It's a car at the front of the midfield, only a couple of tenths faster than alpine at the moment.

I don't think it's a good car, but considering how far wrong they went with the W13 it is understandable

[chrisc90]

I mean where it’s finishing clearly shows it’s not a bad car.

It’s one of those where the fans need to be realistic in their expectations. Mercedes aren’t going to walk everything for forever in a day. If the car was a like it was now in the previous era of regulations, say 2019-2020 for example and it lost that much performance over winter you could understand the fury with fans. But a complete new set of regulations, to be competing in the upper midfield with 2 other teams, especially with a bold concept, should be seen as a partial success. Gifted RB have brought a absolute missile and have blown the regulations out of the water with their car (given engines couldn’t be tweaked between regulation eras).

It seems like 75% of the problem is the team/ fans and the expectation for the car to be putting 2 drivers on the podium is playing precedence to reality. If the car/driver isn’t on the podium, the design becomes a failure in the eyes of many.

Fan expectations is probably a greater hurdle than the cars performance at the minute.

The likelihood of ever seeing a season as competitive as 2021 is very slim. Which is what the fan expectation is wanting really - for the drivers and car to be tied in a 2-6 way battle in the season. Never or very unlikely to happen.

That’s what I think is a ‘difference’ between Mercedes and the likes of red bull or Ferrari. Mercedes have become complacent in their success - where is red bull, for example havent and have always given it 110% to better the car or push the last 10th of a second from a update.

Out of interest, what was the general consensus and feeling with the RB fans in 2014 once their 4 year/season dominance come to a end? Is it similar to now or was it a case of get on with it and make the car better/do your best?

[AR3-GP]

In the first year, Mercedes thought their W13 upgrade was going to bring them 1.5 seconds over the W13 launch spec. This turned out to be fantasy and by a wide margin. In the second year Mercedes promised that they "knew what to fix" with the W13 and would be there or thereabouts only to be arguably even further away than last year.

If your expectation was to fight Red Bull, then by definition you've done a catastrophically bad job if you are 1 second or more off. This is why the reflection is different for AMR who were under no illusions about where they would be this year.

[Im_W1ll]

Bad? No. Great? Neither. It's just an okay car. They are indeed at the front of the midfield. If you compare them to the RB, yes the car is bad. Again, if you compare any car to the RB, the car will look bad. In my opinion, the W14 is not a bad car. Probably 2nd best or 3rd best car on the grid in a race situation. But the fan base just WANTS to see the W14. Overall, the car is quick, not the quickest, but incredibly reliable.

Let's not forget Lewis who loves to remind everyone that he is driving the worst car possible.

[Farnborough]

I feel the Mercedes performance (last year as well) is being pushed as far forward as possible by those two drivers, without which it would be appreciably lower in overal place for positions/points.

The McLaren performance can't really be seen this year so far, waiting for that change to judge it really after their stated change in development direction.

Williams looks quite decent judged against their own performance, seems to have brought pace generally in relation to their start car last year. First driver impressions seem to confirm it's more of a centred balance to work with, but the whole field appears more closely compressed in pure lap time this year. Looks fairly positive initially.

[ValeVida46]

In the first year, Mercedes thought their W13 upgrade was going to bring them 1.5 seconds over the W13 launch spec. This turned out to be fantasy and by a wide margin. In the second year Mercedes promised that they "knew what to fix" with the W13 and would be there or thereabouts only to be arguably even further away than last year.

If your expectation was to fight Red Bull, then by definition you've done a catastrophically bad job if you are 1 second or more off. This is why the reflection is different for AMR who were under no illusions about where they would be this year.

The W13 was one of the most improved cars on the grid from first race to last. Porpoising prevented bolt on upgrades for a long period of time. Don't believe me, look at the stats.

The W14 is also relatively closer to the podiums this year than it was last year. When using sensationalist words like "catastrophic" for what is by all measure an improvement, I question how you come to those conclusions


Do Mercedes need to beat Red Bull every season, or win every season to be average?

[aran.vtec]

If you compare what Merc has done the last few years yes its a bad car to their standards

Would the likes of Mclaren ,williams ,alfa etc be happy if their car performed like the w14 I'm sure they would consider the car a huge success

[ValeVida46]

If you compare what Merc has done the last few years yes its a bad car to their standards

Would the likes of Mclaren ,williams ,alfa etc be happy if their car performed like the w14 I'm sure they would consider the car a huge success

It's the natural ebb and flow of sport. No team/participant wins all the time. Remove the badges and the nomenclature, I can't see how anyone could argue the car is "really bad".
I think this particular team invokes a lot or ire and passion from across the spectrum, and it's very clearly outlined by Ferrari's performance in Jeddah, where Mercedes beat them. But we don't have "is the SF-23 really that bad threads".

[Stu]

In the first year, Mercedes thought their W13 upgrade was going to bring them 1.5 seconds over the W13 launch spec. This turned out to be fantasy and by a wide margin. In the second year Mercedes promised that they "knew what to fix" with the W13 and would be there or thereabouts only to be arguably even further away than last year.

If your expectation was to fight Red Bull, then by definition you've done a catastrophically bad job if you are 1 second or more off. This is why the reflection is different for AMR who were under no illusions about where they would be this year.

The W13 was one of the most improved cars on the grid from first race to last. Porpoising prevented bolt on upgrades for a long period of time. Don't believe me, look at the stats.

The W14 is also relatively closer to the podiums this year than it was last year. When using sensationalist words like "catastrophic" for what is by all measure an improvement, I question how you come to those conclusions


Do Mercedes need to beat Red Bull every season, or win every season to be average?

This is what I have been saying for months (since 2021, tbf), but it seems that there is a section of fandom that sees anything other than Mercedes domination and a particular outcome across both championships as failure.

I cannot think of a single team that has had a consecutive run of success to match Mercedes 2014-21 (yes, 2021 as they still won the WCC and came within a single lap of the WDC) - that is an eight-year run of almost absolute success!!

[ValeVida46]

This is what I have been saying for months (since 2021, tbf), but it seems that there is a section of fandom that sees anything other than Mercedes domination and a particular outcome across both championships as failure.

I cannot think of a single team that has had a consecutive run of success to match Mercedes 2014-21 (yes, 2021 as they still won the WCC and came within a single lap of the WDC) - that is an eight-year run of almost absolute success!!

Exactly, in sporting terms it's unsustainable and unhealthy to keep those expectations.
Doesn't make the W14 bad, just not as good as the front runner.

[Farnborough]

If you compare what Merc has done the last few years yes its a bad car to their standards

Would the likes of Mclaren ,williams ,alfa etc be happy if their car performed like the w14 I'm sure they would consider the car a huge success

It's Mercedes that have set the ground for journalistic and social media review.

Haven't they labelled it their worst car, called it a "shitbox" TW, "glad I never have to drive that again" " won't be asking to keep that one" LH.
Added to which they say they need to get back to the front where they know they belong, or words to that effect.

They've layed the foundation, of course it's going to be discussed on that basis. Naive to think otherwise.

[mendis]

Relative to the glory years of Mercedes, it definitely is a really bad car. It's probably worse than W13 as this car was built with full knowledge of W13's problems and the understanding of the performance reference to the best car on the grid, while W13 was built in dark.

Does any other midfield team would be happy to have this car? Sure. Without having the facilities, investment, people and the might of Mercedes, the midfiled cars would be happy to have it.
Will they be happy to have a recent past like that of Mercedes, all the facilities & people, and then build a car like this? Absolutely not.

[ChrisF1]

I'd concur with some of the above, which is that the cultist fandom is giving the car a reputation that's worse than it actually is.

You'd think that the W13 was the worst car on the grid even at the last races of 2022, and this year is just as bad.

Their reasoning? Lewis has been unbeatable other than bad luck and manipulation since 2014, when those of us who are objective know that Lewis was blessed with the best PU in F1, and even bad days were minimum 2nd on the grid.

They think because of 2014-2020, it's him, and only him.