Drilling holes

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kilcoo316
kilcoo316
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Joined: 09 Mar 2005, 16:45
Location: Kilcoo, Ireland

Re: drilling holes

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Tim.Wright wrote:Two reasons you dont drill weight saving holes in composites:

1. Composites hate point loads and drilling a hole creates higher stresses around its edge in a very local and intense area. = No good.

2. If you want to reduce the weight of a composite part, you just use less plies (thickness). With cured-ply-thicknesses typically ranging from .1 to .3mm you can get whichever thickness you want.
We have a winner here folks.


A steering wheel is loaded through torque - which is shear. Therefore 45/135 degree plies (relative to the neutral axis of the wheel thru the pivot point) are the way to go. You'll get better performance (i.e. strength:weight) by having thinner laminates than thicker with holes.

Ian P.
Ian P.
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Joined: 08 Sep 2006, 21:57

Re: drilling holes

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Just ask Stirling Moss about drilling holes in critical parts.
Especially Italian parts.
Personal motto... "Were it not for the bad.... I would have no luck at all."

Giblet
Giblet
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Joined: 19 Mar 2007, 01:47
Location: Canada

Re: drilling holes

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I just saw this pic in Bar555's pure awesomeness thread about the f60.

I think Bar555 might be the coolest hardest working thread contributer we have here.

Look at all the hoes in what I think is the release for the wheel.

So it looks like Ferrari at least are drilling holes everywhere.
Image
Before I do anything I ask myself “Would an idiot do that?” And if the answer is yes, I do not do that thing. - Dwight Schrute

riff_raff
riff_raff
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Joined: 24 Dec 2004, 10:18

Re: drilling holes

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I might disagree with the proposition that the steering wheel in an F1 car is designed primarily as a torsion member. They have power steering, so the driver torque input is probably very light. On the other hand, the forces from the driver pulling/pushing on the steering wheel during braking or acceleration are probably significant. So the steering wheel spokes being stiff in bending would be important, and lightening holes in the spokes would thus be detrimental.

An F1 steering wheel is very lightweight to begin with, so adding a few holes would not really matter. But normally, holes in a structure are stress risers. And a well designed structure would not benefit from lightening holes.
"Q: How do you make a small fortune in racing?
A: Start with a large one!"

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safeaschuck
1
Joined: 23 Oct 2008, 07:18

Re: drilling holes

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Giblet wrote:Look at all the hoes in what I think is the release for the wheel.

So it looks like Ferrari at least are drilling holes everywhere.
They certainly appear to be holes, but i'm reasonably happy that my hole (urgh) post hasn't been undone by this photo. This part is designed so the driver can more easily get hold of it to release the steering wheel, one of the few bits of the car where being larger than necessary to perform its function is a benefit.

Indeed Raff, it is all taken care of at the design stage, if the material type and thickness parameters allow you to design it without the need for adding additional lightening features post production and you have the money to get it pretty much exactly right first time, then that is the way to go.

kilcoo316
kilcoo316
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Joined: 09 Mar 2005, 16:45
Location: Kilcoo, Ireland

Re: drilling holes

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Giblet wrote:Look at all the hoes in what I think is the release for the wheel.
That is a metal release...


Not composite :)

noname
noname
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Joined: 13 Feb 2009, 11:55
Location: EU

Re: drilling holes

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riff_raff wrote:(...) well designed structure would not benefit from lightening holes.
frames are full of holes and one can not say they are not well designed.
in structures where i.e. weight or cooling really matters you will find quite a few holes. aircraft designs (even the composites ones) are a good example.

regards

riff_raff
riff_raff
132
Joined: 24 Dec 2004, 10:18

Re: drilling holes

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noname,

I would disagree. Automotive steel frames and unibody structures only have holes where absolutely necessary. They may be there for passing tubes or wires thru, accessing fasteners, or for draining moisture. But they are not normally added to make the primary structure lighter. From a structural analysis standpoint, any hole in the structural load path must be given a knock-down factor, generally referred to as a stress concentration factor (Kt). The Kt can reduce the structural analysis margin of safety by factors of anywhere from 1.0 to well over 3.0.

As for holes in composite structures, the most difficult thing to design for in a composite structure is a condition called "open hole compression". So unnecessary holes in composite structures are avoided at all costs.

To see how damaging holes in high-performance structures can be, take a look at the tragic history caused by the window "holes" in the DeHavilland Comet aircraft fuselage structure:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Havilla ... rs_of_1954

Regards,
Terry
"Q: How do you make a small fortune in racing?
A: Start with a large one!"

noname
noname
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Joined: 13 Feb 2009, 11:55
Location: EU

Re: drilling holes

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riff_raff wrote:(...) I would disagree. Automotive steel frames and unibody structures only have holes where absolutely necessary. (...)
holes do not have to be circular. the simplest frame is made from beams and between them you have an empty space - holes. bridges i.e. are made this way as well as the roll cages.

wheel rims are good example - if you look at them they are not made as a solid. you have hub, rim, the spokes connecting them and holes between them. at the end you are getting structure which is strong, light and has provide enough cooling capability.

round bars, or tubes, subjected to bending and/or torsion are another good example. you can remove material from the inside, as it does not do much, and still have strong, stiff and light design. roll cages are made from tubes empty inside, not beams.

in some bolted joint in pressure vessels (i.e. casings of gas turbines subjected to high thermal gradients in radial direction) you are using holes with radial saw-cuts in the flanges to "break" the hoop stress. the holes themselves in fact creates local stress concentration, but as they are placed in low stress regions it's not a big issue. more important is you are lowering stress in the flange.

problem with the Comet was not caused by the presence of the holes but more due their shape and reinforcements around them. they were almost square with very small radii in the corners which lead to high stress concentration and subsequently to fatigue damage. we still have windows in the planes but their shape and design have changes since then. it was possible thanks to the tragedies like the one you've mentioned.

holes, like most design features, can be made to work in our favor or can make a lot of mess. it's all down to knowledge and experience of the designer.

regards,
stan

Giblet
Giblet
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Joined: 19 Mar 2007, 01:47
Location: Canada

Re: drilling holes

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kilcoo316 wrote:
Giblet wrote:Look at all the hoes in what I think is the release for the wheel.
That is a metal release...


Not composite :)


The poster asked about holes in steering wheels, pedals, and other places. I didn't say the release was carbon :)

The color looks a little more golden then titanium... what kind of metal is that?

edit: my monitor settings were held over from my xbox, and it looked yellow. After seeing it on my main monitor I realized my color setting are way off.

likely titanium
Before I do anything I ask myself “Would an idiot do that?” And if the answer is yes, I do not do that thing. - Dwight Schrute

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safeaschuck
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Joined: 23 Oct 2008, 07:18

Re: drilling holes

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noname wrote:
riff_raff wrote:(...) well designed structure would not benefit from lightening holes.
frames are full of holes and one can not say they are not well designed.
in structures where i.e. weight or cooling really matters you will find quite a few holes. aircraft designs (even the composites ones) are a good example.
I give you:
safeaschuck wrote:Also where size is not an issue i.e. in closed body silhouette racers kinda NASCAR type, they can make big I sections etc. with holes in for the same weight as small parts without holes, so they do, because they are stronger and they aren't tight for space inside the car.
Lets not try and make this out to be holes vs no holes. There is a place for both in almost every made thing, it's just that generally F1 does without them for lightening purposes for the reasons described so far in this thread.

kilcoo316
kilcoo316
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Joined: 09 Mar 2005, 16:45
Location: Kilcoo, Ireland

Re: drilling holes

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Giblet wrote:The poster asked about holes in steering wheels, pedals, and other places. I didn't say the release was carbon :)
OK.


When I refer to no-holes being best, I am talking purely about composite materials.


Obviously, for example, aircraft wing ribs or fuselage frames have numerous lightening holes in areas where shear stresses are not substantial.

James_graham
James_graham
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Joined: 08 Apr 2009, 09:00
Location: England

Re: drilling holes

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Hey Guys thought i would add the release is probably a rapid prototyped part, I have seen them on an old Jordan car.

Not a metallic part! it would be too expensive for what it is!

kilcoo316
kilcoo316
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Joined: 09 Mar 2005, 16:45
Location: Kilcoo, Ireland

Re: drilling holes

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James_graham wrote:Hey Guys thought i would add the release is probably a rapid prototyped part, I have seen them on an old Jordan car.

Not a metallic part! it would be too expensive for what it is!
Really?

I have to admit I am somewhat surprised - are their mechanical properties that good?


I'd have thought the FIA would have treated the steering release as a vital safety feature for car evacuation, and would have frowned on any half-measures in that area. But, I suppose there are no mandated materials for it.

James_graham
James_graham
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Joined: 08 Apr 2009, 09:00
Location: England

Re: drilling holes

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I would have thought it isn't a structural part! I could well be wrong but it seems that is the easiest way to make them. I assume the load would travel through the steering column and the part with the holes is the release lock if you will.

I know many teams use rapid prototyping for fins (or they used to). You can rapid prototype with UV cured epoxy resin so that would be pretty tough.

HA that is my take not sure what ferrari actually do I just remember seeing one.