2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

[Zynerji]

If they can do 60% size, why not 10%?

[AR3-GP]

If they can do 60% size, why not 10%?

You want to test as close to full scale as possible. The regs limit teams to maximum of 60% scale.

[[k]arl]

With the ruleset, would Mercedes be prevented from putting the W13 in a full sized tunnel to learn fixes for the W14?

Yes, the rules stipulate 60% is the maximum permitted size for wind tunnel models.

Thinking laterally for a moment, I believe the rules still permit some limited straight line testing of the real car? I wonder if this would allow (or indeed whether there would be any benefit) for the actual car to be measured in an instrumented tunnel, like Laurel Hill in the US or Catesby in the UK?

[mendis]

Nobody really know what exactly is the problem, other than the wind tunnel model being "out of parameters" as per that report. It is out of size? Out of shape? Out of reliability parameters? Is it hurting stability or wrong aero output? We are only running wild with our imagination. I don't know if Mercedes would provide a clarity.

[Zynerji]

With the ruleset, would Mercedes be prevented from putting the W13 in a full sized tunnel to learn fixes for the W14?

Yes, the rules stipulate 60% is the maximum permitted size for wind tunnel models.

Thinking laterally for a moment, I believe the rules still permit some limited straight line testing of the real car? I wonder if this would allow (or indeed whether there would be any benefit) for the actual car to be measured in an instrumented tunnel, like Laurel Hill in the US or Catesby in the UK?

I'm talking about putting the race ran W13 in a 100% sized tunnel. Do tunnel rules count for last year's car?

[Rodak]

The baseline figures provided by F1 is 400 hours of wind tunnel time over 320 runs, with no more than two runs taking place a day.

The largest model is 60% and, as above, 400 hours, so no; the time would count and the car wouldn't fit. Having said that, Sauber did build a fantastic full scale wind tunnel with rolling road back in the day.

[mendis]

With the ruleset, would Mercedes be prevented from putting the W13 in a full sized tunnel to learn fixes for the W14?

Yes, the rules stipulate 60% is the maximum permitted size for wind tunnel models.

Thinking laterally for a moment, I believe the rules still permit some limited straight line testing of the real car? I wonder if this would allow (or indeed whether there would be any benefit) for the actual car to be measured in an instrumented tunnel, like Laurel Hill in the US or Catesby in the UK?

I'm talking about putting the race ran W13 in a 100% sized tunnel. Do tunnel rules count for last year's car?

There is no use case of this kind and hence no rules. Besides, this requires a complete new wind tunnel, which is of no use as teams would be developing the new car for the next year. They anyway know every bit of old car that ran 22 race weekends and a full winter testing. Why would they need a new wind tunnel for the old car?

[Zynerji]

Yes, the rules stipulate 60% is the maximum permitted size for wind tunnel models.

Thinking laterally for a moment, I believe the rules still permit some limited straight line testing of the real car? I wonder if this would allow (or indeed whether there would be any benefit) for the actual car to be measured in an instrumented tunnel, like Laurel Hill in the US or Catesby in the UK?

I'm talking about putting the race ran W13 in a 100% sized tunnel. Do tunnel rules count for last year's car?

There is no use case of this kind and hence no rules. Besides, this requires a complete new wind tunnel, which is of no use as teams would be developing the new car for the next year. They anyway know every bit of old car that ran 22 race weekends and a full winter testing. Why would they need a new wind tunnel for the old car?

Logic would dictate that putting the W13 car in the WindShear 100% scale tunnel may allow them to find the issue with the philosophy, and then allow them to recalibrate their W14 models. If the W14 was not a direct evolution of the W13, it wouldn't make sense, obviously.

Unless, of course, the aero may not actually be the W13/14 problem... I'm still thinking it may be the loss of the hydroaulic suspension control of their aero focused A-arm philosophy.

[AA_2019]

At 6:05, the table shows the Merc is slowest with DRS open. Any thoughts?

[AR3-GP]

At 6:05, the table shows the Merc is slowest with DRS open. Any thoughts?

It's not clear that Mercedes solved their drag problem.

All they did was bolt on a lower downforce, lower drag rear wing. Now Hamilton complains that he lacks confidence in the rear of the car, and Mercedes say the car does not have enough downforce.

Chopping up the rear wing has that effect...

[organic]

At 6:05, the table shows the Merc is slowest with DRS open. Any thoughts?

As was noted at Bahrain the new RW, like early 2022 Ferrari RWs, has a smaller DRS flap than the maximum that is possible for a med-low df rear wing. For a given downforce level, a larger proportion of drag comes from the main plane of merc's wing than other teams' designs. They therefore shed less drag by opening the RW than they could and have a larger main plane than is necessary.

Ferrari noted this problem and quickly worked to solve it and ended up bringing 3 new rear wing profiles last year so that they could fight RB on track without this disadvantage.

It's weird that Merc have decided to adopt this now despite Ferrari's obvious U-turn away from this design and against the trend of what we see up and down the grid from other teams

[F1Krof]

Yes in this regard, Mercedes seem to always be a step behind.

[Hammerfist]

At 6:05, the table shows the Merc is slowest with DRS open. Any thoughts?

It's not clear that Mercedes solved their drag problem.

All they did was bolt on a lower downforce, lower drag rear wing. Now Hamilton complains that he lacks confidence in the rear of the car, and Mercedes say the car does not have enough downforce.

Chopping up the rear wing has that effect...

But the car was definitively faster with the smaller wing. This was demonstrated in bahrain when george ran the heavier wing in multiple practice sessions and was considerably slower. Which is why they ultimately opted for the lighter wing for the race and qualifying.

Forget about what hamilton said but the car is definitely lacking downforce overall. Not sure if balance is a real issue though.

[AR3-GP]

At 6:05, the table shows the Merc is slowest with DRS open. Any thoughts?

It's not clear that Mercedes solved their drag problem.

All they did was bolt on a lower downforce, lower drag rear wing. Now Hamilton complains that he lacks confidence in the rear of the car, and Mercedes say the car does not have enough downforce.

Chopping up the rear wing has that effect...

But the car was definitively faster with the smaller wing. This was demonstrated in bahrain when george ran the heavier wing in multiple practice sessions and was considerably slower. Which is why they ultimately opted for the lighter wing for the race and qualifying.

Forget about what hamilton said but the car is definitely lacking downforce overall. Not sure if balance is a real issue though.

Low downforce wing might be faster over 1 lap, but Mercedes had degradation issues in Bahrain and practically had no traction whatsoever which is a result of a lack of load on the rear. Hamilton cooked his tires in the first 4 laps of the race.

[Hammerfist]

It's not clear that Mercedes solved their drag problem.

All they did was bolt on a lower downforce, lower drag rear wing. Now Hamilton complains that he lacks confidence in the rear of the car, and Mercedes say the car does not have enough downforce.

Chopping up the rear wing has that effect...

But the car was definitively faster with the smaller wing. This was demonstrated in bahrain when george ran the heavier wing in multiple practice sessions and was considerably slower. Which is why they ultimately opted for the lighter wing for the race and qualifying.

Forget about what hamilton said but the car is definitely lacking downforce overall. Not sure if balance is a real issue though.

Low downforce wing might be faster over 1 lap, but Mercedes had degradation issues in Bahrain and practically had no traction whatsoever which is a result of a lack of load on the rear. Hamilton cooked his tires in the first 4 laps of the race.

They had the deg issues during the pre season test as well and they only ran the high df wing then.