2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

[continuum16]

The race did a rough analysis of this and it turns out that AMR and Ferrari seating position is very similar to Mercedes. Only RB is the outlier of the top 4 teams.

https://storage.googleapis.com/the-race ... ison-2.jpg
https://the-race.com/formula-1/mercedes ... struggles/

I also saw this. I'm just relaying what Lewis said even though realistically it's not that different to most other cars on the grid. If Lewis just wants them to build a Red Bull, then he should just flat out say "build me a Red Bull" at this point rather than saying "people didn't listen" and "the cockpit is too far forward" etc.

I suspect, sort of how the article alludes to, that a big reason for the lack of feel is the relationship between the cockpit and the center of pressure more than the position of the cockpit itself.

I would also add that I wonder what the differences in feedback and car balance preference through a corner is between the two drivers. I remember there was an article about the differences between Albon and Russell's demands at Williams and I wonder if something similar exists at Merc between Lewis and George.

I wonder if the issue isn't about seating positions and is more so about having no rear grip (or lack of). The latter has been something Hamilton complained about even last year. The former is only a recent discovery but is probably being triggered by the latter. All last year Mercedes were compensating by running a heavily loaded rear wing. This season they trimmed the rear wing considerably and quelle surprise, the driver says the rear has no grip or feeling.

Surely that's a big part of it. With the exception of maybe 2020 (and debatably 2019) Merc have never been great at making a car with a strong or stable rear end. At the end of the V8 era, the early V6 era, the wider 2017/18 cars (the famous "divas"), and 2021 the car always looked on a knifedge compared to others. Like McLaren's weak front end, it's something they've not been able to overcome despite numerous reg cycles.

[Hammerfist]

Its so strange listening to lewis complain about the rear of the car. Hes always handled oversteering cars well. Jenson button used to complain about the mp4-27 as that car was very oversteery. He called it his worse mclaren. Lewis made that car look like a championship contender minus the reliability. So yeah im quite surprised he is complaining about that trait now. Being able to handle a loose rear is what makes verstappen so special. None of his teammates have neen able to handle the pointy redbull cars of the last few years. And now youre starting to hear george seems to like the same sort of balance. Has lewis evolved as a driver that much? Did the dominant mercedes cars make him a softer driver? I think there might be some truth to that.

[Chuckjr]

Why wouldn’t they soften him up? It’s an accepted fact teams play better when they play better teams. Teams that have soft schedules, tend to get softer and lose the edge. Why would a near decade of dominance not soften not only Lewis, but the entire Merc team? It’s inevitable.

[Chuckjr]

I suspect, sort of how the article alludes to, that a big reason for the lack of feel is the relationship between the cockpit and the center of pressure more than the position of the cockpit itself.

Bingo.

[avantman]

Surely that's a big part of it. With the exception of maybe 2020 (and debatably 2019) Merc have never been great at making a car with a strong or stable rear end. At the end of the V8 era, the early V6 era, the wider 2017/18 cars (the famous "divas"), and 2021 the car always looked on a knifedge compared to others. Like McLaren's weak front end, it's something they've not been able to overcome despite numerous reg cycles.

interview to Benson of BBC, April 2013.
Q: What is the favourite F1 car you have driven?

A: "The one I'm driving right now. I have always needed a car with good rear grip. I don't mind if I have to struggle with the front because you can catch that up. But I've always wanted to make sure I have plenty of rear grip and I've rarely had that before. Now, I've finally got a 'rear-ended' car and it's driving into understeer, and you have to work around it with mechanical balance.
"I know people have this impression of me as a driver who likes to dance the rear end out, but that's just the way my cars have been. I'm quite comfortable being on the edge and having to balance it when it looks 'oversteery'.
"That's what I had to do with my aggressive style to get the car as far up as possible. Driving in that way enables me to make that kind of car shine more than it would do if I drove it normally. But I prefer the car like the Mercedes is now."

[PlatinumZealot]

I don't think that's right at all, many parts aren't built to scale, or they didn't used to be when I used to have access to Manor, a lot of scaled parts are modified to account for predicted differences at wind tunnel scale vs car scale. Things don't work the same just because you made everything scaled the same.
It's part of why correlation between not just the wind tunnel and the CFD work, but also the full scale results at the track, are so tricky.

You are overthinking it. For a given model in the windtunnel you wont have parts on the model with different scales. I'm not referring to different models.

[PlatinumZealot]

I don't think there is that much of a needle between the two drivers but I do agree with George in the sense that, at the end of the day, the driver is the only one who can communicate qualitative changes to the setup. If the driver's feedback leads the team in a certain direction then so be it. To say "I knew it would be right" is probably not 100% correct but you can have a good degree of confidence.

Hamilton has noted the cockpit position being to far forward is contributing to his lack of feeling in the car, which probably doesn't help with setup direction. Of course, George is in the same car as well so that wouldn't explain the difference between the two, just relative to other teams.

George never had previous Mercedes or Mclarens... and he is from a younger generation.
Alonso, Kimi.. all had specific needs with steering.. Hamilton seems now uses the gyration of the car to feel it. This is definitely a new one.. but it does make sense. Some old F1 drivers with the long bonnet cars lost their bearing when the cars became mid-engined...

[AR3-GP]

I don't think there is that much of a needle between the two drivers but I do agree with George in the sense that, at the end of the day, the driver is the only one who can communicate qualitative changes to the setup. If the driver's feedback leads the team in a certain direction then so be it. To say "I knew it would be right" is probably not 100% correct but you can have a good degree of confidence.

Hamilton has noted the cockpit position being to far forward is contributing to his lack of feeling in the car, which probably doesn't help with setup direction. Of course, George is in the same car as well so that wouldn't explain the difference between the two, just relative to other teams.

George never had previous Mercedes or Mclarens... and he is from a younger generation.
Alonso, Kimi.. all had specific needs with steering.. Hamilton seems now uses the gyration of the car to feel it. This is definitely a new one.. but it does make sense. Some old F1 drivers with the long bonnet cars lost their bearing when the cars became mid-engined...

It's interesting because guys like Verstappen and Norris do SO much sim racing where you are sitting stationary in a chair with no g-forces or sensations. You have to rely on visual/aural cues almost entirely when sim-racing.

I bet this kind of preparation really benefits some of the younger drivers. Hamilton historically hates sim. Alonso likewise, never did sim work because it made him sea-sick or something like that. Alonso is notorious for being on the buzzer about steering feeling. It's funny because he and Trulli drove for Renault all those years ago and Trulli was another one who was very OCD about steering feel.

[ringo]

Its so strange listening to lewis complain about the rear of the car. Hes always handled oversteering cars well. Jenson button used to complain about the mp4-27 as that car was very oversteery. He called it his worse mclaren. Lewis made that car look like a championship contender minus the reliability. So yeah im quite surprised he is complaining about that trait now. Being able to handle a loose rear is what makes verstappen so special. None of his teammates have neen able to handle the pointy redbull cars of the last few years. And now youre starting to hear george seems to like the same sort of balance. Has lewis evolved as a driver that much? Did the dominant mercedes cars make him a softer driver? I think there might be some truth to that.

No he iz not complaining about the grip. He is complaining about his perception and feeling change. It's like taking your eyes out and placing them on your chest. You will perceive things differently. And a driver needs to be able to have his tools customized to his liking. So if mercedes stop caring what he thinks..then it's a huge problem at the team. They will not get the best out of him.

[AR3-GP]

Its so strange listening to lewis complain about the rear of the car. Hes always handled oversteering cars well. Jenson button used to complain about the mp4-27 as that car was very oversteery. He called it his worse mclaren. Lewis made that car look like a championship contender minus the reliability. So yeah im quite surprised he is complaining about that trait now. Being able to handle a loose rear is what makes verstappen so special. None of his teammates have neen able to handle the pointy redbull cars of the last few years. And now youre starting to hear george seems to like the same sort of balance. Has lewis evolved as a driver that much? Did the dominant mercedes cars make him a softer driver? I think there might be some truth to that.

No he iz not complaining about the grip. He is complaining about his perception and feeling change. It's like taking your eyes out and placing them on your chest. You will perceive things differently. And a driver needs to be able to have his tools customized to his liking. So if mercedes stop caring what he thinks..then it's a huge problem at the team. They will not get the best out of him.

There's a matter of 45-50 million dollars saying to get on with it

[ringo]

I don't think there is that much of a needle between the two drivers but I do agree with George in the sense that, at the end of the day, the driver is the only one who can communicate qualitative changes to the setup. If the driver's feedback leads the team in a certain direction then so be it. To say "I knew it would be right" is probably not 100% correct but you can have a good degree of confidence.

Hamilton has noted the cockpit position being to far forward is contributing to his lack of feeling in the car, which probably doesn't help with setup direction. Of course, George is in the same car as well so that wouldn't explain the difference between the two, just relative to other teams.

George never had previous Mercedes or Mclarens... and he is from a younger generation.
Alonso, Kimi.. all had specific needs with steering.. Hamilton seems now uses the gyration of the car to feel it. This is definitely a new one.. but it does make sense. Some old F1 drivers with the long bonnet cars lost their bearing when the cars became mid-engined...

It's interesting because guys like Verstappen and Norris do SO much sim racing where you are sitting stationary in a chair with no g-forces or sensations. You have to rely on visual/aural cues almost entirely when sim-racing.

I bet this kind of preparation really benefits some of the younger drivers. Hamilton historically hates sim. Alonso likewise, never did sim work because it made him sea-sick or something like that. Alonso is notorious for being on the buzzer about steering feeling. It's funny because he and Trulli drove for Renault all those years ago and Trulli was another one who was very OCD about steering feel.

I think Shumacher also got motion sickness from sims. These guys depended mostly on feeling.

[Rodak]

I suspect, sort of how the article alludes to, that a big reason for the lack of feel is the relationship between the cockpit and the center of pressure more than the position of the cockpit itself.

Bingo.

Not so sure. The center of pressure is aerodynamic, front/rear balance is mechanical. If the driver sits more forward of the c.g. they will not sense the rear coming around as well as a more rearward position. Having said that, 10 cm doesn't seem like a critical distance. If you look back years ago before the rule of driver's feet behind the front wheel center-line you can see extreme forward driving positions. Polar moments and driver position might be the issue. Still, a pretty small change; I suspect the driver.

[Jdn1327]

I suspect, sort of how the article alludes to, that a big reason for the lack of feel is the relationship between the cockpit and the center of pressure more than the position of the cockpit itself.

Bingo.

Not so sure. The center of pressure is aerodynamic, front/rear balance is mechanical. If the driver sits more forward of the c.g. they will not sense the rear coming around as well as a more rearward position. Having said that, 10 cm doesn't seem like a critical distance. If you look back years ago before the rule of driver's feet behind the front wheel center-line you can see extreme forward driving positions. Polar moments and driver position might be the issue. Still, a pretty small change; I suspect the driver.

Would 10cm make a difference in depth perception? Hamilton did say he feels like he is sitting over the front wheels. So maybe his perception of feel and the pivoting of the rear is being affected by the position? Sorry just a couple a questions

[pursue_one's]

According to Toto Wolff, Miracle not coming(major upgrade packages) anytime soon for Mercedes.

"The next three races, we won't be adding any performance."
"It's finding the best set-up solutions and getting the tyre in the right window."

[Chuckjr]

I suspect, sort of how the article alludes to, that a big reason for the lack of feel is the relationship between the cockpit and the center of pressure more than the position of the cockpit itself.

Bingo.

Not so sure. The center of pressure is aerodynamic, front/rear balance is mechanical. If the driver sits more forward of the c.g. they will not sense the rear coming around as well as a more rearward position. Having said that, 10 cm doesn't seem like a critical distance. If you look back years ago before the rule of driver's feet behind the front wheel center-line you can see extreme forward driving positions. Polar moments and driver position might be the issue. Still, a pretty small change; I suspect the driver.

Hmm.

My thought stemmed from the Kyle Engineers video where he talked about the W14 needing complex vortices to work, and Kyle thought because of natural occurrences that don’t show in a tunnel like side winds and yaw, the car would not act in the real world as it does in the simulator. The W14, according to Kyle, would be more susceptible to natural effects other cars with better designs would not be effected by. It seemed to me then, it would be a nightmare for any driver to drive such a car, since the car would tend to be unstable from the disruption of the complex vortices required that make it work. Today in practice we saw more instability and to me, it makes sense what Kyle said about the car. It made sense to me the car would give false feelings to the driver whereby one moment the complex vortices are working and he car feels dialed, and then the next moment the air detaches and the car becomes suddenly unstable. The shifting pressures made me think continuum16‘s thought was a good one as aero pressure changes would deceive the driver.