General aero discussions

[Stu]

The really interesting thing is that any effect on a micro level can have an amplified effect (either net-positive or net negative) on a macro level.

The Mercedes down/outwash mid-wing, the Mercedes mini/quad-pods the RedBull/Aston Martin undercut, the Aston Martin super-slides will all have a local negative impact on chassis download, but none of them exist in isolation.

The @Vanja/Shub-YouTube X-slice video gives some indication of how the overall flow structures are working & how each item impacts the effect of the next.

Mercedes are also trying to create a strong down/outwash with their front wing endplate, front suspension ‘cascade’ AND chassis bodywork AHEAD of the mid-wing.

[Dr Obbs]

The really interesting thing is that any effect on a micro level can have an amplified effect (either net-positive or net negative) on a macro level.

The Mercedes down/outwash mid-wing, the Mercedes mini/quad-pods the RedBull/Aston Martin undercut, the Aston Martin super-slides will all have a local negative impact on chassis download, but none of them exist in isolation.

The @Vanja/Shub-YouTube X-slice video gives some indication of how the overall flow structures are working & how each item impacts the effect of the next.

Mercedes are also trying to create a strong down/outwash with their front wing endplate, front suspension ‘cascade’ AND chassis bodywork AHEAD of the mid-wing.

And IMO this is one of the issues with the Merc design is that they are using so many discrete independent elements and trying to get them to work harmoniously together to achieve the same purpose. Trying to get 4-5 smaller aero devices to work together is harder than 1-2 bigger bluffer devices. It's the thing that has never really sat well with me about the design.

[AR3-GP]

The really interesting thing is that any effect on a micro level can have an amplified effect (either net-positive or net negative) on a macro level.

The Mercedes down/outwash mid-wing, the Mercedes mini/quad-pods the RedBull/Aston Martin undercut, the Aston Martin super-slides will all have a local negative impact on chassis download, but none of them exist in isolation.

The @Vanja/Shub-YouTube X-slice video gives some indication of how the overall flow structures are working & how each item impacts the effect of the next.

Mercedes are also trying to create a strong down/outwash with their front wing endplate, front suspension ‘cascade’ AND chassis bodywork AHEAD of the mid-wing.

And IMO this is one of the issues with the Merc design is that they are using so many discrete independent elements and trying to get them to work harmoniously together to achieve the same purpose. Trying to get 4-5 smaller aero devices to work together is harder than 1-2 bigger bluffer devices. It's the thing that has never really sat well with me about the design.

I think this is an oversimplification. I don't see anything inherently wrong with the idea of getting multiple aero devices to work together. The problem is the execution. It has to work in the end. That doesn't mean it can't be done. It just means you haven't done it yet.

[PlatinumZealot]

So Andrea Stella released some very interesting information today...

RedBull floor concept utilizes and exploits "vertical" flow structures underneath it. Apparently, they are getting better downforce doing it. Most teams you can imagine committed to "horizontally" sweeping flow structures under the floor.

I'm not sure how to interpret this, but I imagine Adrian Newey has "double-stacked" two or more vortices vertically, one on top of the other, to build interior "curtains" running to the rear of the floor. Other teams apparently roll up vortices that are laterally beside each other instead....

Quite interesting. And you can see why Mclaren had to go back to the drawing board to exploit this as this a HUUUGE change in design if not yet a change a philosophy.

[Chuckjr]

So Andrea Stella released some very interesting information today...

RedBull floor concept utilizes and exploits "vertical" flow structures underneath it. Apparently, they are getting better downforce doing it. Most teams you can imagine committed to "horizontally" sweeping flow structures under the floor.

I'm not sure how to interpret this, but I imagine Adrian Newey has "double-stacked" two or more vortices vertically, one on top of the other, to build interior "curtains" running to the rear of the floor. Other teams apparently roll up vortices that are laterally beside each other instead....

Quite interesting. And you can see why Mclaren had to go back to the drawing board to exploit this as this a HUUUGE change in design if not yet a change a philosophy.

Reminds me of when this video came out of the triple vortices coming off the rb9 and everyone was flabbergasted. The man (Newey) is of another breed in aero. Amazing intellect.

[PlatinumZealot]

Ok that one is the popular Y250 vortex.

So imagine a similar thing under the floor but in a vertical stack of two (one on top of the other).

This could be what Stella is hinted at.

[Stu]

So Andrea Stella released some very interesting information today...

RedBull floor concept utilizes and exploits "vertical" flow structures underneath it. Apparently, they are getting better downforce doing it. Most teams you can imagine committed to "horizontally" sweeping flow structures under the floor.

I'm not sure how to interpret this, but I imagine Adrian Newey has "double-stacked" two or more vortices vertically, one on top of the other, to build interior "curtains" running to the rear of the floor. Other teams apparently roll up vortices that are laterally beside each other instead....

Quite interesting. And you can see why Mclaren had to go back to the drawing board to exploit this as this a HUUUGE change in design if not yet a change a philosophy.

Reminds me of when this video came out of the triple vortices coming off the rb9 and everyone was flabbergasted. The man (Newey) is of another breed in aero. Amazing intellect.

Imagine a Dyson Cyclone in reverse, then you will understand the logic behind the (comparatively) cavernous tunnels that we saw underneath the RB18; having gone to all of the trouble for that car you then see how much further the flow can be manipulated/managed/controlled.

I, personally, don’t see a stack of vortices, but an entrained spiral where ALL of the small features play a role in the formation and amplification the flow structures created.
Following this train of thought, provided that you adequately vent that flow through the diffuser; using ‘high’ rake at lower speeds/very low ride height at higher speeds - due to the use of heavily preloaded rear heave spring/clever damping (and how the ratio of the two interact) you can effectively control the download and drag created by the floor at different speeds.

[gandharva]

I think this is where the magic happens. I already wondered at the beginning of the year what this overlaying structures at the side if the keel area are used for.

[SiLo]

I think this is where the magic happens. A already wondered at the beginning of the year what this overlaying structures at the side if the keel area are used for.

(snip)

I think a lot of it might be what is around that area. Specifically, how gentle the outwash is from the strakes either side. It's clear Red Bull are wanting to outwash much farther back on the car than the rest of the grid.

[Vanja #66]

So Andrea Stella released some very interesting information today...

RedBull floor concept utilizes and exploits "vertical" flow structures underneath it. Apparently, they are getting better downforce doing it. Most teams you can imagine committed to "horizontally" sweeping flow structures under the floor.

I'm not sure how to interpret this, but I imagine Adrian Newey has "double-stacked" two or more vortices vertically, one on top of the other, to build interior "curtains" running to the rear of the floor. Other teams apparently roll up vortices that are laterally beside each other instead....

Quite interesting. And you can see why Mclaren had to go back to the drawing board to exploit this as this a HUUUGE change in design if not yet a change a philosophy.

Interesting information. Terminology is always a way to mislead competition, so we can't know for sure what Stella referred to as "vertical flow structures"

I can't see how two vortices (stacked in whichever way, horizontal, vertical or other) would stay apart inside a low converging tunnel. At one point, and very soon after they come close, they would merge and continue revolving in the direction of the stronger one.

Vertical flow structures sound more like near-vertical flow direction and accompanying structures. The only place I could imagine something like that happening would be in the transition area between tunnel walls and edges. Without seeing the actual RB19 floor, we can only speculate wildly...

[gandharva]

I can't see how two vortices (stacked in whichever way, horizontal, vertical or other) would stay apart inside a low converging tunnel. At one point, and very soon after they come close, they would merge and continue revolving in the direction of the stronger one.

Correct, but it can take quite a while depending on the environmental conditions. Even in a tunnel.



Also the join could be a desired effect as two joined vortices can also create complex interactions and increase their strength through mutual reinforcement. This is known as the "vortex merging effect," which can result in a larger and more intense vortex than the sum of its individual parts.

[AR3-GP]

So Andrea Stella released some very interesting information today...

RedBull floor concept utilizes and exploits "vertical" flow structures underneath it. Apparently, they are getting better downforce doing it. Most teams you can imagine committed to "horizontally" sweeping flow structures under the floor.

I'm not sure how to interpret this, but I imagine Adrian Newey has "double-stacked" two or more vortices vertically, one on top of the other, to build interior "curtains" running to the rear of the floor. Other teams apparently roll up vortices that are laterally beside each other instead....

Quite interesting. And you can see why Mclaren had to go back to the drawing board to exploit this as this a HUUUGE change in design if not yet a change a philosophy.

Interesting information. Terminology is always a way to mislead competition, so we can't know for sure what Stella referred to as "vertical flow structures"

I can't see how two vortices (stacked in whichever way, horizontal, vertical or other) would stay apart inside a low converging tunnel. At one point, and very soon after they come close, they would merge and continue revolving in the direction of the stronger one.

Vertical flow structures sound more like near-vertical flow direction and accompanying structures. The only place I could imagine something like that happening would be in the transition area between tunnel walls and edges. Without seeing the actual RB19 floor, we can only speculate wildly...

Having seen the tunnel shapes on the widely circulated RB18 photos, there is a lot of vertical contouring which was absent on other cars. Considering the budget cap and the WT penalty, one would have to imagine that the floor of the RB19 is a derivation of the RB18 floor, not an entirely new concept. Thus I think photos of the RB18 can still provide some qualitative insight.

[n_anirudh]

I can't see how two vortices (stacked in whichever way, horizontal, vertical or other) would stay apart inside a low converging tunnel. At one point, and very soon after they come close, they would merge and continue revolving in the direction of the stronger one.

Correct, but it can take quite a while depending on the environmental conditions. Even in a tunnel.
https://i.imgur.com/2RBiuih.png
https://i.imgur.com/tgquyTY.png

Also the join could be a desired effect as two joined vortices can also create complex interactions and increase their strength through mutual reinforcement. This is known as the "vortex merging effect," which can result in a larger and more intense vortex than the sum of its individual parts.

That's almost a Crow instability which you see in the sky with contrails.
Here, the vortices are being pushed away and upawards which eventually dissipate or destroyed.

PS: Those red/green fluoresceine dye looks like some visualisation from Thomas Leweke's lab in Marseille?

[gandharva]

PS: Those red/green fluoresceine dye looks like some visualisation from Thomas Leweke's lab in Marseille?

https://www.irphe.fr/~ledizes/web/CRAS2005.pdf

[Zynerji]

If you stack counter rotating vorticies, doesn't it produce a pressure differential on each side of the stack? If so, would having a box with the high pressure sides of these stacks facing the outer walls create a very low pressure in the center of the box, inducing more mass flow ingestion, and a low pressure zone on the roof and floor of the box?