2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

[chrisc90]

Another thing to consider is the models need to have correlation too. If they have struggled to correlate the W13 and W14 then they have to have their current model pretty near enough perfect in order to be designing changes successfully.

Not sure how well it correlates at present, compared to the claims made earlier on in the season for the present time, but it will have to be good or it might lead them down the wrong path again

[basti313]

Stick with me son and you'll go far, what DRS train was Hamilton in when he was stuck behind Hulkenberg for several laps? And, you clearly didn't read my post properly, I said the car is arguably second best on a Sunday, but, qualifying makes a difference, Russell had to work his way through traffic, Alonso didn't, do keep up son.

Interesting....I checked the times and actually this is true. Behind Gasly the gap was 3 sec, this is not much. After overtaking Gas he had lost 2 more seconds. This 4-5 seconds gap was stable until the pitstop when Rus had to pit to prevent a Gas undercut.
After the stops the gap stayed within 6-8 seconds even though Alo had 7 laps newer tires.

I did not see in the race that the performance was that similar.

[harty71]

Stick with me son and you'll go far, what DRS train was Hamilton in when he was stuck behind Hulkenberg for several laps? And, you clearly didn't read my post properly, I said the car is arguably second best on a Sunday, but, qualifying makes a difference, Russell had to work his way through traffic, Alonso didn't, do keep up son.

Interesting....I checked the times and actually this is true. Behind Gasly the gap was 3 sec, this is not much. After overtaking Gas he had lost 2 more seconds. This 4-5 seconds gap was stable until the pitstop when Rus had to pit to prevent a Gas undercut.
After the stops the gap stayed within 6-8 seconds even though Alo had 7 laps newer tires.

I did not see in the race that the performance was that similar.

Russell had great pace, Hamilton was barley faster on fresher and faster tyres in the final stint, the car is not bad at all.

[AR3-GP]

Stick with me son and you'll go far, what DRS train was Hamilton in when he was stuck behind Hulkenberg for several laps? And, you clearly didn't read my post properly, I said the car is arguably second best on a Sunday, but, qualifying makes a difference, Russell had to work his way through traffic, Alonso didn't, do keep up son.

Interesting....I checked the times and actually this is true. Behind Gasly the gap was 3 sec, this is not much. After overtaking Gas he had lost 2 more seconds. This 4-5 seconds gap was stable until the pitstop when Rus had to pit to prevent a Gas undercut.
After the stops the gap stayed within 6-8 seconds even though Alo had 7 laps newer tires.

I did not see in the race that the performance was that similar.

Alonso was toying with Merc and Ferrari. He'd have gone a little bit quicker if he needed to. He was already the one who did the longest medium tire stint of anyone and completely erased Sainz's undercut while being on the supposed inferior tire.

[harty71]

https://pitwall.app/analysis/compare-lap-times

[AR3-GP]

https://pitwall.app/analysis/compare-lap-times

I like the visualizations on this website a bit more:

https://en.mclarenf-1.com/2023/gp/s9103 ... s/239-840/




The fact that he extended the medium tire stint much longer than Russell, and the fast lap at the end speaks for itself. Alonso sandbags even more than RB when he has track position. He'll do just enough to keep a gap, and nothing more.

[harty71]

https://pitwall.app/analysis/compare-lap-times

I like the visualizations on this website a bit more:

https://en.mclarenf-1.com/2023/gp/s9103 ... s/239-840/
https://i.postimg.cc/13t7wvwZ/image.png

https://i.postimg.cc/B6svwPq4/image.png

The fact that he extended the medium tire stint much longer than Russell, and the fast lap at the end speaks for itself. Alonso sandbags even more than RB when he has track position. He'll do just enough to keep a gap, and nothing more.

The Aston may be a tad faster but there's not much difference in race pace over the race distance.

[AR3-GP]

https://pitwall.app/analysis/compare-lap-times

I like the visualizations on this website a bit more:

https://en.mclarenf-1.com/2023/gp/s9103 ... s/239-840/
https://i.postimg.cc/13t7wvwZ/image.png

https://i.postimg.cc/B6svwPq4/image.png

The fact that he extended the medium tire stint much longer than Russell, and the fast lap at the end speaks for itself. Alonso sandbags even more than RB when he has track position. He'll do just enough to keep a gap, and nothing more.

The Aston may be a tad faster but there's not much difference in race pace over the race distance.

AMR has 5 podiums from 6 races. Mercedes has 1 podium in 6 races.

[harty71]

I like the visualizations on this website a bit more:

https://en.mclarenf-1.com/2023/gp/s9103 ... s/239-840/
https://i.postimg.cc/13t7wvwZ/image.png

https://i.postimg.cc/B6svwPq4/image.png

The fact that he extended the medium tire stint much longer than Russell, and the fast lap at the end speaks for itself. Alonso sandbags even more than RB when he has track position. He'll do just enough to keep a gap, and nothing more.

The Aston may be a tad faster but there's not much difference in race pace over the race distance.

AMR has 5 podiums from 6 races. Mercedes has 1 podium in 6 races.

They have been a tad faster, still, the Mercedes is a good car, it was very close to grabbing pole in Melbourne.

[organic]

The Aston may be a tad faster but there's not much difference in race pace over the race distance.

AMR has 5 podiums from 6 races. Mercedes has 1 podium in 6 races.

They have been a tad faster, still, the Mercedes is a good car, it was very close to grabbing pole in Melbourne.

Quali pace isn't a very good metric this season I feel.

[PlatinumZealot]

It's too easy to find suspension problems. You compare suspension movements that you are getting with the desired movements, to get a certain aerodynamic behaviour, and you correct from there. Quite logical flow to identify a suspension issue.

With statements from Wolff like "we don't know what is wrong and the car is not good in all areas"... Then for sure it's not a suspensionsion issue. It's now about aerdynamics and tyres two of the boadest areas for problem solving.

Tyre usage is part of the suspension...

I think Mercedes still have problems getting the tyres in the correct operating temperature with consistency, hence why the balance swings from being good to not good unpredictably depending on track conditions...?

That's a suspension rather than aerodynamic issue, no?

I speak of suspension as what is considered suspension parts in the FIA rules since the physical tyres are the same for everyone.

Gettting the tyres into the window have a lot to do with the aero balance and the brake ducts. The brake ducts are extremely complicated devices that once could add up to 1 second per lap.

So yeah this aero is very deep.

[harty71]

AMR has 5 podiums from 6 races. Mercedes has 1 podium in 6 races.

They have been a tad faster, still, the Mercedes is a good car, it was very close to grabbing pole in Melbourne.

Quali pace isn't a very good metric this season I feel.

No, but Mercedes usually have more race pace, the car is good, it's just that RB are on another level.

[ValeVida46]

Quali pace isn't a very good metric this season I feel.

Agreed. In the last 25 races or so there's been a large difference between qualifying and race pace.
A feature of the new rules.

[basti313]

https://pitwall.app/analysis/compare-lap-times

I like the visualizations on this website a bit more:

https://en.mclarenf-1.com/2023/gp/s9103 ... s/239-840/
https://i.postimg.cc/13t7wvwZ/image.png

https://i.postimg.cc/B6svwPq4/image.png

The fact that he extended the medium tire stint much longer than Russell, and the fast lap at the end speaks for itself. Alonso sandbags even more than RB when he has track position. He'll do just enough to keep a gap, and nothing more.

This is just wrong assumptions. Without the undercut thread of Gasly the first stint by Russell could have been longer. If you look at the corrected tire usage data the laptime deficit is much higher for the Aston than for the Merc:
https://www.datawrapper.de/_/wE8P3/

And Alo did a fastest lap attempt in the end for which he charged the car before. Rus did not do an attempt. That Alo on the glory run does not put much time on Rus is showing that his tires were also done.

AMR has 5 podiums from 6 races. Mercedes has 1 podium in 6 races.

Is it the driver or the car?
I mean...in 3 out of 5 races this season on of the Merc drivers started completely out of position. 4 to 7 places behind the teammate. On the other hand Alonso is constantly and on average outperforming Stroll by half a second.
They need to get their Q together and especially Ham needs to stop bottling every second Q....this is no longer Ham vs. Ros where it simply did not play any role if he was 0.4sec slower on the Q run.

Quali pace isn't a very good metric this season I feel.

Why not? It is the same metric as in every season.
The Q pace directly is a metric for the performance except for the Ferrari problem with a very bad tire usage: https://www.datawrapper.de/_/ijD7R/

But in the end you see more or less the picture of the WDC standings just by looking on the average Q performance. There is only Norris who lucked into some points and Leclerc and Rus being low on points because of the DNFs in Oz. But this will clear up further.

[ValeVida46]

It is the same metric as in every season.

You wrote in your post that Mercedes "are out of position" which is a lead indicator that qualifying is nowhere near as indicative of race pace as it used to be.
Haas(!) outqualified Russell and ended the race over 30seconds behind.

Leclerc outqualified Max and ended a second a lap behind the Red bulls in Azerbaijan, but still finished 3rd with Alonso unable to pass. So yes, the Ferrari certainly does suffer tyre deg. But not enough to validate 1 second a lap difference.

This set of rules is far less reliant on qualifying as the indicator for actual speed in the race. There's a good argument to be made that stint times in the free practice session are far more reliable now.