2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

[basti313]

It is the same metric as in every season.

You wrote in your post that Mercedes "are out of position" which is a lead indicator that qualifying is nowhere near as indicative of race pace as it used to be.

No. Merc is out of position because their drivers perform bad in Q. Their average Q pace could be on the level of Alonso if they would bring it together every time just like Alonso.

Haas(!)

Was never a good comparison. Just bad car with a glimpse of Q pace.

Haas(!) outqualified Russell and ended the race over 30seconds behind.

You compare a car with a driver?

This set of rules is far less reliant on qualifying as the indicator for actual speed in the race. There's a good argument to be made that stint times in the free practice session are far more reliable now.

Same as for the 2013...or was it 2012 Merc. Good in Q, bad in the race.
That someone builds a shitty race car which is good in Q happened in the past. This year Ferrari and Haas have built such a dog, which is unusual in terms of a top team and more than one team.

On the other hand if we exclude Ferrari from the top, there is nothing unusual at the top as soon as Ham and Rus get their laps together.

[ValeVida46]

No. Merc is out of position because their drivers perform bad in Q.

Oh right, ok. So they perform bad on Saturday and then miraculously get it right come Sunday.
If ever there was curve fitting, it's right here.

Was never a good comparison. Just bad car with a glimpse of Q pace.

It's the perfect comparison. A Haas outqualified both Mercedes and got beat by 30 seconds in the race. What more could you ask for?

You compare a car with a driver?

I compared Russell in a Mercedes vs the Haas of Magnussen, there's no reason to desiccate the point.

On the other hand if we exclude Ferrari from the top, there is nothing unusual at the top as soon as Ham and Rus get their laps together.

We have repeated examples of cars qualifying faster and falling back, or qualifying slower and moving up the grid in the race. I've given examples from just the last 2 races, and your suggestion is that it's not the car it's the drivers at fault, who then somehow manage to make amends on race day.
So you're excusing Ferrari, it's the drivers fault at Mercedes, and Haas just had a one of special lap. Alpine too who fell behind both Ferrari and Mercedes.

[basti313]

No. Merc is out of position because their drivers perform bad in Q.

Oh right, ok. So they perform bad on Saturday and then miraculously get it right come Sunday.

Yes. So how many examples of this season should we go through? Maybe a good one and a bad one:
Oz: Good Q3 laps by both drivers. -> two possible podiums.

Miami: Very bad Q2 by Ham. On avarage the track evolution from Q1 to Q2 was around 0.3 to 0.6sec for the ones who brought their Q2 lap together...examples are Ferrari, RedBull, Aston and so on. With the bad Q he starts our of position and makes a very nice return.
On the other hand Russel: With a good lap and some improvement from Q2 to Q3 he would have easily been in front of Gas and Mag. Magnussen was simply out of position as he boosted in a risky lap while others did their safety lap. In the end he ended exactly where he would have started, again in a good position, most probably even on the podium.

And the rest:
In Baku they both bottled their Q2 runs with yellow sectors, same picture by the way as in Miami just with Rus starting out of position. In Saudi it was Ham starting out of position with a bad Q3...
In Bahrain both showed no progress in the last Q3 run while everyone else well improved.

It's the perfect comparison. A Haas outqualified both Mercedes and got beat by 30 seconds in the race. What more could you ask for?
....
I compared Russell in a Mercedes vs the Haas of Magnussen, there's no reason to desiccate the point.

Well, first of all you can not really compare the pace in a Q3 where Verstappen ends up behind Magnussen as well, right?
Then you have comparing all other Q sessions maybe a tenth of difference in Q pace from the best Haas to the best Merc. Again consistently good Q by Magnussen, bad Q1 for Rus, bad Q2 for Ham...
We are even not speaking about a Haas that was much better in Q. In the race it was eating through its tires, so I can not see where there is something unusual or rules related.

We have repeated examples of cars qualifying faster and falling back, or qualifying slower and moving up the grid in the race. I've given examples from just the last 2 races, and your suggestion is that it's not the car it's the drivers at fault, who then somehow manage to make amends on race day.

Correction:
It is mainly the Merc drivers, so this fits well into this thread, who progress well in the race and Ferrari, Haas dropping back. BUT Ferrari drivers through the season lost a hand full of places while the gain of the Mercs was substantially more.
For others...I do not see much progress...e.g. Stroll....once he qualifies bad he maybe goes to the top of the midfield cars.

So you're excusing Ferrari, it's the drivers fault at Mercedes, and Haas just had a one of special lap. Alpine too who fell behind both Ferrari and Mercedes.

Well...Alpine just dropped back as the other drivers did not do well in Q. That is exactly my point.Thank you for this nice example.
For Sainz...he would not have qualified in P3 with a normal Q3. P5 at best, so also nothing unusual here.

[ValeVida46]

I'm not going to become embroiled in your curve fitting exercise.

You're isolating teams, blaming drivers from one, circumstances for the other, and tyre deg for the next, and one off laps from the other.
When you need that many levels of explanation....

[basti313]

When you need that many levels of explanation....

Sorry...actually the point was clear. The Merc is very similar to the Aston in race pace and depending on track second or third fastest car. the lack of hard and discussable facts against maybe took too much explanation on no arguments.

[ValeVida46]

When you need that many levels of explanation....

Sorry...actually the point was clear. The Merc is very similar to the Aston in race pace and depending on track second or third fastest car. the lack of hard and discussable facts against maybe took too much explanation on no arguments.

Basti believe what you will, I got no issue with you sharing your opinion. I just disagree with it is all.

I don't see how the drivers are to blame when both have similar problems in qualifying, only to then have a decent race. That is totally indicative of a car that's slow in qualifying and quicker in the race.
Adding variables only adds unnecessary elements.

The simple explanation is that with the current set of rules, as was before, is that most cars aren't set up for qualifying and are set up for the fastest possible stint time. However, the range of difference in that set up is now by far much wider than it was before. Ferrari had tyre deg issues in 2017-18 and were outqualifying Mercedes at some races and beating them.
You can excuse its as one off Haas laps, Ferrari tyre deg, Merc drivers, lucky Alpine drivers, and I'll say it's the present ruleset which is affecting it.

[Polite]

When you need that many levels of explanation....

Sorry...actually the point was clear. The Merc is very similar to the Aston in race pace and depending on track second or third fastest car. the lack of hard and discussable facts against maybe took too much explanation on no arguments.

Basti believe what you will, I got no issue with you sharing your opinion. I just disagree with it is all.

I don't see how the drivers are to blame when both have similar problems in qualifying, only to then have a decent race. That is totally indicative of a car that's slow in qualifying and quicker in the race.
Adding variables only adds unnecessary elements.

The simple explanation is that with the current set of rules, as was before, is that most cars aren't set up for qualifying and are set up for the fastest possible stint time. However, the range of difference in that set up is now by far much wider than it was before. Ferrari had tyre deg issues in 2017-18 and were outqualifying Mercedes at some races and beating them.
You can excuse its as one off Haas laps, Ferrari tyre deg, Merc drivers, lucky Alpine drivers, and I'll say it's the present ruleset which is affecting it.

Ferrari didnt have tyre deg issue in 2017! The won in Spain for their best tyre management.

[basti313]

I don't see how the drivers are to blame when both have similar problems in qualifying, only to then have a decent race.

Why both? As explained before, just look at the list of races, it is mostly only one of them having issues in Q and starting out of position.

[mendis]

https://f1-insider.com/formel-1-adrian- ... ull-56110/

F1 hammer: Mercedes wanted to poach Red Bulls Adrian Newey
Exclusive: Mercedes has made an offer to Red Bull chief designer Adrian Newey. Ferrari also tried unsuccessfully to find another Red Bull aerodynamicist.

[DGP123]

https://f1-insider.com/formel-1-adrian- ... ull-56110/

F1 hammer: Mercedes wanted to poach Red Bulls Adrian Newey
Exclusive: Mercedes has made an offer to Red Bull chief designer Adrian Newey. Ferrari also tried unsuccessfully to find another Red Bull aerodynamicist.

No chance. Never was going to happen. He’s signed an extension at RB now, so they will probably dominate until, 26’

[harty71]

If you can't beat em, buy em!

[pursue_one's]

The first big package on the W14 will arrive at Imola, as announced by the team itself, after some small packages introduced in the first races. The last one in Baku, which should have also included a revised front suspension but which was postponed to Imola due to delays in its construction.

It is no coincidence that a 'test item' was carried out in Miami, as the teams call it, i.e. a first check on the track of an update that will arrive later, with a new steering rack, unfortunately prepared in a hurry and which did not allow the team to collect important data.

A new front suspension will make its debut at Imola, the only mechanical component together with the chassis that differentiates Mercedes from Aston Martin, which will be able to count on a new power steering, in an attempt to improve the balance of the car and make it more driveable.

The test carried out in Miami was in preparation for the update on the Santerno circuit. Beyond that, as announced by Toto Wolff, there will be changes to the bodywork and the floor.

https://www.formu1a.uno/aggiornamenti-m ... direzione/

[Stu]

This is the TEAM thread, this is a TECHNICAL forum, purely “my driver is better than yours” - AND IN THE SAME TEAM, ffs - does NOT belong. Please take such blather elsewhere, it is toxic & creates division rather than discussion.
Several pages of nonsense removed.

Drivers are a part of the team, but are only two small components within it - the loose nuts behind the steering wheel.

[f1jcw]

The first big package on the W14 will arrive at Imola, as announced by the team itself, after some small packages introduced in the first races. The last one in Baku, which should have also included a revised front suspension but which was postponed to Imola due to delays in its construction.

It is no coincidence that a 'test item' was carried out in Miami, as the teams call it, i.e. a first check on the track of an update that will arrive later, with a new steering rack, unfortunately prepared in a hurry and which did not allow the team to collect important data.

A new front suspension will make its debut at Imola, the only mechanical component together with the chassis that differentiates Mercedes from Aston Martin, which will be able to count on a new power steering, in an attempt to improve the balance of the car and make it more driveable.

The test carried out in Miami was in preparation for the update on the Santerno circuit. Beyond that, as announced by Toto Wolff, there will be changes to the bodywork and the floor.

https://www.formu1a.uno/aggiornamenti-m ... direzione/

George didn't like the new steering rack though.

[Venturiation]

The first big package on the W14 will arrive at Imola, as announced by the team itself, after some small packages introduced in the first races. The last one in Baku, which should have also included a revised front suspension but which was postponed to Imola due to delays in its construction.

It is no coincidence that a 'test item' was carried out in Miami, as the teams call it, i.e. a first check on the track of an update that will arrive later, with a new steering rack, unfortunately prepared in a hurry and which did not allow the team to collect important data.

A new front suspension will make its debut at Imola, the only mechanical component together with the chassis that differentiates Mercedes from Aston Martin, which will be able to count on a new power steering, in an attempt to improve the balance of the car and make it more driveable.

The test carried out in Miami was in preparation for the update on the Santerno circuit. Beyond that, as announced by Toto Wolff, there will be changes to the bodywork and the floor.

https://www.formu1a.uno/aggiornamenti-m ... direzione/

George didn't like the new steering rack though.

It was unusable with the current suspension