FIA Thread

[ValeVida46]

Just like Mercedes did with their engines back in 2014! Look how many years it took everyone else to catch up even without budget and development limitations…

Not quite.

Horner was kicking and screaming to get the rules changed in 2014, and Marko threatened RBR would quit the sport if no changes were made. and the FIA adjusted it to only freeze 8% of the engine. There were marked improvements as reflected in 2015 with Ferrari won 3 races and a further 13 podiums.

Compare that to now, and the FIA seem no closer to getting what they set out from the rules than they did in 2021.

[chrisc90]

But didn’t the FIA and Mercedes develop their engine together in order to get data for the FIA as no other team had one on a Dyno yet?

[ValeVida46]

But didn’t the FIA and Mercedes develop their engine together in order to get data for the FIA as no other team had one on a Dyno yet?

Are you accusing the FIA and Mercedes of collusion?

Any wonder threads end up a total mess

[CMSMJ1]

But didn’t the FIA and Mercedes develop their engine together in order to get data for the FIA as no other team had one on a Dyno yet?

Are you accusing the FIA and Mercedes of collusion?

Any wonder threads end up a total mess

But didn’t the FIA and Mercedes develop their engine together in order to get data for the FIA as no other team had one on a Dyno yet?

It's only a question? Doesn't need any twisting of knickers.

As I recall the engine development - I don't think FIA and Mercedes were in cahoots to develop it - but there were lots of manufacturer conversations about config of the motor etc - i.e it was almost a "World Engine" and a 4 cylinder. There was also PURE racing out there trying to tout for business.

To end up with a 1.6l V6 as it sits - surely the engine manufacturers were involved and at that time - there were only 3 of them and Merc supplied 5 of the teams?

[chrisc90]

But didn’t the FIA and Mercedes develop their engine together in order to get data for the FIA as no other team had one on a Dyno yet?

Are you accusing the FIA and Mercedes of collusion?

Any wonder threads end up a total mess

Sure I seen it in a video.

Merc started their development in 2007, and played a key part in negotiations to how the engines should be developed. Other manufacturers only found out later and had a 5 year development window

[CMSMJ1]

I don't see how (or why) the FIA was looking for changes in 2007 to the engines. It was just not on. it was pre global banking mess and there were still several big money teams and engine manufacturers in the game

Honda, Merc, Renault, Cosworth, Ferrari, Toyota

They did not have any agreement on the next engine spec at that time and didn't even agree on architecture til a bit too close to the line - as Ferrari were threatening the veto ref 4 cylinder.

Reckon you could find that Video Chris?

[chrisc90]

I don't see how (or why) the FIA was looking for changes in 2007 to the engines. It was just not on. it was pre global banking mess and there were still several big money teams and engine manufacturers in the game

Honda, Merc, Renault, Cosworth, Ferrari, Toyota

They did not have any agreement on the next engine spec at that time and didn't even agree on architecture til a bit too close to the line - as Ferrari were threatening the veto ref 4 cylinder.

Reckon you could find that Video Chris?

Could be a challenge but I’ll have a look.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/eccl ... re/517030/

I think it could be along the lines of that. More digging needed

[CarolineWhite]

Until the roles are displayed again on the website with different names and a confirmation from the FIA that the 2 men are either far removed from F1 related roles or from the FIA altogether I can’t help but not read too much into it. The FIA are far too underhand for me to believe anything just yet.

Signs are looking good though…
Replacement wise though, who?

So, when it comes to finding people for important positions in the world of Formula 1 racing, there are a few different types of people who might be good candidates. Some of them might be folks who have already worked in F1 before, like former team leaders or engineers who really know the ins and outs of the sport. But it's also possible that the people in charge might consider looking outside of F1 to find qualified folks, like people who have worked in other big-time sports or industries.

[ValeVida46]

It's only a question? Doesn't need any twisting of knickers.

As I recall the engine development - I don't think FIA and Mercedes were in cahoots to develop it - but there were lots of manufacturer conversations about config of the motor etc - i.e it was almost a "World Engine" and a 4 cylinder. There was also PURE racing out there trying to tout for business.

To end up with a 1.6l V6 as it sits - surely the engine manufacturers were involved and at that time - there were only 3 of them and Merc supplied 5 of the teams?

The implication of Mercedes having an unfair advantage in the lead up to the change. Totally false.
Especially as the source now given "seen it in a video somewhere" ...Is this F1 technical or TheJudge13?
[Edit]The source now given is a headliner title that doesn't back a single thing...Even Uncle Bernie says this from the very "source"...

Ecclestone said efforts to close Mercedes' huge advantage should now be made, even though he admitted that Renault, "who pushed for this revolution, have failed"

Especially as ALL suppliers said this in 2010:

F1's engine makers are banding together against the FIA's plans to introduce a radically new engine formula in 2013. It was previously believed the bulk of the teams backed the plans for turbocharged 1.6 litre 4-cylinder engines, in accordance with a 'greener' image.
But the sport's engine makers Ferrari, Mercedes, Renault and Cosworth have now come to the conclusion that Jean Todt's plans will cost EUR100 million to develop, and are lobbying to be able to base the new formula on the existing V8 engines.

The 4 cylinder turbo was still on the cards until as late as mid 2011 until it was ditched for the V6 by unanimous consent as proven here:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/13878359


And it was Ferrari that pushed hard for the V6s in 2011 while the 4 cylinder formula was set for 2013, as proven here:
https://www.crash.net/f1/news/165753/1/ ... 1-pathetic


The charge that Mercedes were working on an engine for the new rules, implies that they knew exactly what the rules would be. That's completely false and erroneous, it doesn't follow any factual info, or timeline.

It also conflates any R&D with "knowing" what would happen, as every engine manufacturer is tinkering with tech that may be applied in the future, they'd be remiss not to. Like any engine manufacturer R&D stuff being confused for solid tech drawings of the 2014 engine regs. Mercedes must've had a boss 4 cylinder engine ready to go in 2013

It's really not difficult to follow, attempts at implying a collusive collaboration between the FIA and Mercedes...ignores literally everything that happened.

[ValeVida46]

And there's more:

In 2011, Mercedes HPE docs show a 50m uptick in R&D.
2007-2010 were all fairly unform given engines were frozen but some R&D was required (KERS etc).

https://find-and-update.company-informa ... ory?page=2


So it would be absolutley astonishing that Mercedes would be working on a V6 hybrid in 2007, given that they spent similar levels of R&D previously only for the sudden jump in 2011, and then made Ferrari push for V6's of their own accord in 2011, and before that made Renault push for whatever it was they wanted. Beyond ridiculous.

[ENGINE TUNER]

But didn’t the FIA and Mercedes develop their engine together in order to get data for the FIA as no other team had one on a Dyno yet?

Are you accusing the FIA and Mercedes of collusion?

Any wonder threads end up a total mess

Sure I seen it in a video.

Merc started their development in 2007, and played a key part in negotiations to how the engines should be developed. Other manufacturers only found out later and had a 5 year development window

Completely and totally wrong

[CMSMJ1]

Thanks for digging out the links and references both.

Fairly clear that there isn't collusion and clear also that perhaps that wasn't really suggested...

Merc did a good job. Simple. They're clever buggers

[chrisc90]

You know how it goes, story twisted multiple times and gets tweaked.

EngineTuner… a lot of stories seem to suggest otherwise. Care to share your thoughts on why merc didn’t begin to develop prior to anyone else?

[ValeVida46]

Thanks for digging out the links and references both.

Much obliged sir.

If anyone is interested in further reading on the topic, there's an exhaustive Sub-reddit done by Rain08 with links to all the usual allegations answered factually with timelines.
https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comme ... &context=3

[vorticism]

Beyond ridiculous.

Four years off, nbd. Merc (engine side) were always going to have the upper hand developing an engine like that compared to Renault and Ferrari, imo. Bigger company, more diesel and EV tech to draw upon in-house. In these senses Merc had 30-50+ year head starts. They had direct Injection in the 1950s you'll recall! The complexities of the regs made it difficult for Renault, Honda and Ferrari to compete, while they could during the NA era; while the German engineering powerhouse of Mercedes took it in stride. The split turbo alone was a brilliant interpretation of the rules.

Any team would be angling for their best outcome within their ability to influence the FIA and best leverage the rules. This is what you refer to as "cheating" in other threads, you'll recall; so chrisc90 not totally out in the woods with his implications.