2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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McG
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Re: 2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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AR3-GP wrote:
11 May 2023, 04:51
McG wrote:
11 May 2023, 03:58
CMSMJ1 wrote:
10 May 2023, 16:19
I was glad to see the v2 Honda partnership and it was a massive failure from both parties. now that HRC have provided WCC/WDC level engines (to the team that could probably win with any engine in that chassis) I can see that it is Honda in demand, and not the pull of McLaren to bring them to the table.

What can McLaren offer Honda that, for example, Aston Martin can't?

Aston have a hunger right now and cannot rest on their laurels as there is no history of winning. McLaren have lost that laser focus on winning and it is a racing brand at the moment.

It needs to decide whether F1 and winning in F1 is the target and drop all the extraneous crap or it will go the way of the last garagiste teams - Tyrell, Brabham, Lotus (and Williams of late)

A Saudi buyout will kill it - and what remains won't be the same..a la Williams - but you see Williams is focussed on winning (or at least trying really bloody hard to be better)
Totally agree about Red Bull would be winning with any engine in there. Red Bull have flattered their engine suppliers nearly forever. For a simple comparison we just need to look at Apha Tauri.
Manor had a Mercedes engine in 2016 and scored 1 point all year. Does that mean the Merc engine was nothing special?
This is obviously a ridiculous comparison which I hope is a joke or I really worry about what is being regularly discussed here. There is no comparison to a long term Red Bull Honda sister team with stability, to how Manor was back then. If this is truly your thoughts then I invite you to read up on the design process of the 2016 Manor and the situation they were in by 2017. I'll wait for your reply.
Finally, everyone knows that Red Bull is a joke and Max Verstappen is overrated.

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djos
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Re: 2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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Interesting video from Tommo today.

"In downforce we trust"

CMSMJ1
CMSMJ1
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Re: 2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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McL-H wrote:
11 May 2023, 23:02
CMSMJ1 wrote:
10 May 2023, 17:46
10 years without winning is not good for the team.

*yes, I remember DR3 winning in Monza - but no-one is going to say that was due to the team bringing a car capable. it was as (nearly as ) much a fluke as was Gasly the year before or Ocon in Hungary
I am sorry, but I have to disagree. McLaren won Monza on merit. They were already leading without mayhem happening around them. They managed to get good starting positions for the sprint, did well to get even better starting positions for the main race and led the race from start to finish, with no one able to overtake Daniel or Lando. Comparing that 1-2 to lucky Ocon or lucky Gasly is just nonsense and very unfair imo.

It was a good car that was well suited to Monza and was very well capable of winning, as we’ve all seen.
They did win it and win it well - but it was an anomaly. They were not achieving the results to give confidence that a win was always on the cards.

I said it was nearly as much a fluke as Ocon/Gasly - it was surely not as a result of having a winning car in the pocket.
IMPERATOR REX ANGLORUM

vinu.l.t
vinu.l.t
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Joined: 01 Feb 2023, 13:08

Re: 2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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Quick one - are we recruiting suspension specialists / experts from other teams? There has been a lot of talk about recruitment in the aero department, but Mclaren have been lacking on the suspension front as evidenced by our poor performance in slow speed corners these last 4-5 years.

Ben1980
Ben1980
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Re: 2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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In the first 14 races Lando finished in the top 5 10 times up until Monza, then had pole in Sochi and coulda shoulda won.

While they nay not have been pushing for a win, the performance was pretty consistent that a win, wasn't really a shock.

Ground Effect
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Re: 2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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Ben1980 wrote:
12 May 2023, 11:17
In the first 14 races Lando finished in the top 5 10 times up until Monza, then had pole in Sochi and coulda shoulda won.

While they nay not have been pushing for a win, the performance was pretty consistent that a win, wasn't really a shock.
He was also quite strong in the wet Spa qualifying, until the crash. Pole was looking like a real possibility.
Q: (Stefano Mancini – La Stampa) Kimi, will you help Vettel to win his championship this year?
Kimi Raikkonen: I can only drive one car, obviously. 
@2018 Singapore Grand Prix drivers press conference.

Lucky
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Re: 2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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Lucky
Lucky
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Re: 2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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After you have performed well in Baku, in what proved to be a weekend is very positive, on the weekend of the Miami seemed to be a step back for McLaren, far away from the points and almost always in the bottom of the group. The characteristics of the u.s. track not has been useful to those of MCL60 updated, it still suffers from the high temperatures and certain types of curves, in particular when they can't turn with a level of downforce higher than that of rivals.
Despite the transition to the standards of design in ground effect for 2022, the MCL36 of last season, it was still plagued by the same unpredictability of driving in the center of the curve is already registered in 2021. Lando Norris has raised the same complaint in respect of the current MCL60, while team boss Andrea Stella explained that the car is weaker under conditions of low grip, and when the pilots did not use the accelerator and the brakes.
Over the past few appointments, to compensate for the shortcomings of the car generally, the team opted to shoot with wings full, even if it went to penalty in top speed. This trick has helped me on a path, such as ones of Melbourne and Baku, but not on other tracks, where they emerged the present limits of the car.
In an attempt to increase the aerodynamic load and achieve the targets missed for the winter break, the team of Woking started on an important path to development, which in Baku, azerbaijan became a reality with the arrival of a new fund, that brings interesting novelties in the lower part, the one hidden from the eyes of the public.
“The most visible part is the lower part of the fund. But in reality, in this generation of the car, a lot of what contributes to the performance is what you can't see, is underneath the car. This area is very different from the previous generation of the car in which the geometry was prescribed as a flat. Now there is no prescription”
“This is a real game of millimeters, with many, many iterations in many areas of the car or with the intervention of many people in the room aerodynamics. This is the main difference, a level smaller update, you can also change the concept of the beam wing. The reconfiguration of the beam wing is now divided, and is overall more efficient. We intend to continue to develop this area of the car for the rest of the season, and also with regard to the fund hope that we will have a couple of other developments, at least in the course of the season,” explained Andrea Stella.
On a track like Baku, full of long straights where it counts for very high-speed aerodynamic efficiency, this new package was worth around two-to three-tenths: “I can't say the numbers of the aerodynamic efficiency, but let's say that for this car, we were expecting something like two or three tenths of a second. This is what we expected. And I sincerely believe that is what happened.”

The new fund is an important evolution, has not changed radically in the car, so much so that, according to the Team Principal, some aspects have remained similar to the old specification. However, the goal was to improve the overall load is generated in each condition, the theme that the technical group is convinced that he is able to hit. To take a further step forward, there remains much work to be done, especially keeping in mind that the creation of a new fund, both in terms of design and physical realization, it generally requires from three weeks to a month of waiting.

“For this specific development, we have not necessarily changed the maps of aerodynamic. It is still relatively similar, but the load is greater, and is in all conditions. And also in this configuration is complete, if you compare, for example, with cars, more developed, such as Red Bull, you may notice some areas that still require a bit of work, for example some cars of tip not have this opening here [the opening in front of the rear tires], is an aspect on which we are working”.
“But it is not as easy as if the chiudessi and it worked, or if the chiudessi and there were many problems. And then you begin this process of correction of details here and there, and it may take three weeks to get a floor with this closure, which is more powerful but it is not obvious how to get it,” added the Star.

According to the Italian manager, a positive aspect of these new single-seater is the simplicity of finding the correlation between the data obtained in the wind tunnel and the race track than the previous generation of cars. An important element for teams such as McLaren, which rely on external structures, such as that of Cologne, to complete the simulations, with a process that requires more time and investment. Fortunately, the new wind tunnel in Woking is in the process of completion, with the calibration test, audible even from the office of the Star.

“I think that this generation of cars were better correlated, at least in the McLaren. Knowing that we have so many limitations with the wind tunnel, have the limitations of the winter with the previous generation of the car was very restrictive, not only for logistics".
"With these cars much happens on the bottom, where, in general, the correlation is better for any reason, while in the previous generation, there were many vortices that were flying in the air freely generated from the side, as by the bargeboard for example. In general, the front wings were even more complicated. This front wing is working as far away from earth, it is more simple”.

Thinking of the future, of course, the path of the updates will continue in the coming events with news that would change the shape of the bellies: “[updates] Will have an impact on the rest of the car, it is a work in progress. With regard to the shape of the car, I expect that it will evolve in a very evident way, the most obvious of [this update], he added,” the Team Principal.
https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-st ... /10468374/
Last edited by Lucky on 12 May 2023, 18:01, edited 2 times in total.

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mclaren111
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Re: 2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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vinu.l.t wrote:
12 May 2023, 10:52
Quick one - are we recruiting suspension specialists / experts from other teams? There has been a lot of talk about recruitment in the aero department, but Mclaren have been lacking on the suspension front as evidenced by our poor performance in slow speed corners these last 4-5 years.

Totally agree...

AR3-GP
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Re: 2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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Lucky wrote:
12 May 2023, 13:10
After having figured well in Baku in what turned out to be a very positive w The characteristics of the US track did not benefit those of the updated MCL60, which still suffers from high temperatures and certain types of corners, in particular when it cannot turn with a higher level of downforce than that of rivals.
Despite the shift to ground-effect design standards for 2022, last season's MCL36 was still plagued by the same curve-center driving unpredictability that was already experienced in 2021. Lando Norris raised the same complaint about the current MCL60, while team boss Andrea Stella explained that the car is weaker in low grip conditions and when drivers do not use the accelerator and brakes.
In recent events, to compensate for the shortcomings of the car, the team generally opted to ride with highly charged wings, even if this penalized top speeds. This gimmick helped on particular tracks such as those in Melbourne and Baku, but not on other tracks, where the current limitations of the single-seater emerged.
In an attempt to increase the aerodynamic load and achieve the missed objectives for the winter break, the Woking team has started an important development process, which in Baku has materialized with the arrival of a new fund, which also brings interesting news to the lower part, the one hidden from the public eye.
“The most visible part is the bottom of the bottom. But actually, in this generation of cars, a lot of what contributes to performance is what you don't see, it's under the car. This zone is very different from the previous generation of cars in which the geometry was prescribed as flat. Now there is no prescription”
“It's a real game of millimeters, with many, many iterations in many areas of the car or with the intervention of many people in the aerodynamics room. This is the main difference, a smaller upgrade level can also change the concept of beam w The reconfiguration of the beam w We intend to continue to develop this area of the car for the rest of the season, and also as far as the bottom is concerned I hope we will have a couple more developments, at least over the course of the season,” explained Andrea Stella.
On a track like Baku, full of long straights where aerodynamic efficiency matters a lot, this new package was worth around two to three tenths: “I can't say the aerodynamic efficiency numbers, but let's say we expected something like two or three tenths for this car. This is what we expected. And we honestly think that's what happened".
Although the new fund is an important evolution, it did not radically change the car, so much so that, according to the Team Principal, some aspects remained similar to the old specification. However, the goal was to improve the overall load generated in every condition, a theme that the technical group is convinced it has managed to achieve. To make a further step forward there is still a lot of work to be done, especially bearing in mind that the creation of a new fund, both in terms of design and physical implementation, generally requires from three weeks to a month of waiting.
“For this specific development, we did not necessarily change the aerodynamic maps. It is still relatively similar, but the load is greater and it is in all conditions. And even in this complete configuration, if you compare, for example, with more developed cars like Red Bull, you can see some areas that still require some work, for example some top cars do not have this opening here [the opening present in front of the rear tires], it is an aspect that we are working on”.
“But it's not as easy as if you close it and it works, or if you close it and there are a lot of problems. And then you start this process of correcting details here and there and it could take three weeks to get a floor with this closure, which is more performing but it's not obvious how to get it,” Stella added.
Also according to the Italian manager, a positive aspect of these new cars is the greater simplicity in finding correlation between the data obtained in the wind tunnel and the track compared to the previous generation of cars. An important element for those teams like McLaren who rely on external structures, such as the one in Cologne, to complete their simulations, with a process that therefore requires more time and investment. Fortunately, the new wind tunnel atoking
“I think this generation of cars is better correlated overall, at least at McLaren. Knowing that we have so many limitations with the wind tunnel, having winter limitations with the previous generation of cars was very restrictive, not just for logistics".
"With these cars a lot happens on the bottom, where in general the correlation is better for whatever reason, whereas in the previous generation there were many vortices flying in free air generated from the side, such as from bargeboards for example. In general, the front wings were also more complicated. This front wing works farther from the ground, it's simpler”.
Thinking ahead, clearly the path of updates will continue in the next appointments with news that should also change the shapes of the bellies: “[The updates] Will also have an impact on the rest of the car, it is a work in progress. As for the shape of the car, I predict it will evolve very noticeably, more noticeable than [this update],” added the Team Principal.
A humble sentiment from Stella. He’s realistic.
A lion must kill its prey.

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mwillems
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Re: 2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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AR3-GP wrote:
12 May 2023, 15:43
Lucky wrote:
12 May 2023, 13:10
After having figured well in Baku in what turned out to be a very positive w The characteristics of the US track did not benefit those of the updated MCL60, which still suffers from high temperatures and certain types of corners, in particular when it cannot turn with a higher level of downforce than that of rivals.
Despite the shift to ground-effect design standards for 2022, last season's MCL36 was still plagued by the same curve-center driving unpredictability that was already experienced in 2021. Lando Norris raised the same complaint about the current MCL60, while team boss Andrea Stella explained that the car is weaker in low grip conditions and when drivers do not use the accelerator and brakes.
In recent events, to compensate for the shortcomings of the car, the team generally opted to ride with highly charged wings, even if this penalized top speeds. This gimmick helped on particular tracks such as those in Melbourne and Baku, but not on other tracks, where the current limitations of the single-seater emerged.
In an attempt to increase the aerodynamic load and achieve the missed objectives for the winter break, the Woking team has started an important development process, which in Baku has materialized with the arrival of a new fund, which also brings interesting news to the lower part, the one hidden from the public eye.
“The most visible part is the bottom of the bottom. But actually, in this generation of cars, a lot of what contributes to performance is what you don't see, it's under the car. This zone is very different from the previous generation of cars in which the geometry was prescribed as flat. Now there is no prescription”
“It's a real game of millimeters, with many, many iterations in many areas of the car or with the intervention of many people in the aerodynamics room. This is the main difference, a smaller upgrade level can also change the concept of beam w The reconfiguration of the beam w We intend to continue to develop this area of the car for the rest of the season, and also as far as the bottom is concerned I hope we will have a couple more developments, at least over the course of the season,” explained Andrea Stella.
On a track like Baku, full of long straights where aerodynamic efficiency matters a lot, this new package was worth around two to three tenths: “I can't say the aerodynamic efficiency numbers, but let's say we expected something like two or three tenths for this car. This is what we expected. And we honestly think that's what happened".
Although the new fund is an important evolution, it did not radically change the car, so much so that, according to the Team Principal, some aspects remained similar to the old specification. However, the goal was to improve the overall load generated in every condition, a theme that the technical group is convinced it has managed to achieve. To make a further step forward there is still a lot of work to be done, especially bearing in mind that the creation of a new fund, both in terms of design and physical implementation, generally requires from three weeks to a month of waiting.
“For this specific development, we did not necessarily change the aerodynamic maps. It is still relatively similar, but the load is greater and it is in all conditions. And even in this complete configuration, if you compare, for example, with more developed cars like Red Bull, you can see some areas that still require some work, for example some top cars do not have this opening here [the opening present in front of the rear tires], it is an aspect that we are working on”.
“But it's not as easy as if you close it and it works, or if you close it and there are a lot of problems. And then you start this process of correcting details here and there and it could take three weeks to get a floor with this closure, which is more performing but it's not obvious how to get it,” Stella added.
Also according to the Italian manager, a positive aspect of these new cars is the greater simplicity in finding correlation between the data obtained in the wind tunnel and the track compared to the previous generation of cars. An important element for those teams like McLaren who rely on external structures, such as the one in Cologne, to complete their simulations, with a process that therefore requires more time and investment. Fortunately, the new wind tunnel atoking
“I think this generation of cars is better correlated overall, at least at McLaren. Knowing that we have so many limitations with the wind tunnel, having winter limitations with the previous generation of cars was very restrictive, not just for logistics".
"With these cars a lot happens on the bottom, where in general the correlation is better for whatever reason, whereas in the previous generation there were many vortices flying in free air generated from the side, such as from bargeboards for example. In general, the front wings were also more complicated. This front wing works farther from the ground, it's simpler”.
Thinking ahead, clearly the path of updates will continue in the next appointments with news that should also change the shapes of the bellies: “[The updates] Will also have an impact on the rest of the car, it is a work in progress. As for the shape of the car, I predict it will evolve very noticeably, more noticeable than [this update],” added the Team Principal.
A humble sentiment from Stella. He’s realistic.
And indeed confirmation that the issues/traits from the previous formula did push through into last years car after all.

Baku update was worth 2-3 tenths at Baku. That is huge, and it seems the new updates will offer more.

Time will tell.
I'm not taking advice from a cartoon dog

-Bandit

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mwillems
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Re: 2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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Two more rounds of updates before the summer break, in Canada and Silverstone. The Silverstone update will be another floor, which they don't want to introduce in Austria because it is another sprint race and this upgrade is too big for a 1 practise event.

If the "smaller" Baku update was worth 2-3 tenths, it will be interesting to see what these two updates will bring if they are both bigger than Baku. Perhaps just bigger in scope but not as relatively bigger in time.

Stella expects it to put us regularly in the points.

There are also minor upgrades coming to Imola.

https://www.planetf1.com/news/sizeable- ... t-upgrade/
I'm not taking advice from a cartoon dog

-Bandit

AR3-GP
AR3-GP
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Re: 2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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mwillems wrote:
12 May 2023, 22:54
Two more rounds of updates before the summer break, in Canada and Silverstone. The Silverstone update will be another floor, which they don't want to introduce in Austria because it is another sprint race and this upgrade is too big for a 1 practise event.

If the "smaller" Baku update was worth 2-3 tenths, it will be interesting to see what these two updates will bring if they are both bigger than Baku. Perhaps just bigger in scope but not as relatively bigger in time.

Stella expects it to put us regularly in the points.

There are also minor upgrades coming to Imola.

https://www.planetf1.com/news/sizeable- ... t-upgrade/
It seems like sprints are preventing teams from improving...
A lion must kill its prey.

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djos
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Re: 2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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And I got laughed at for saying the car was deeply flawed! If McLaren fixed this issue, Daniel would not have had his confidence destroyed. If race car drivers can't predict the car behaviour, it's hard for them to trust the car and drive it to the limit, that's just a fact! 😡
Despite the shift to ground-effect design standards for 2022, last season's MCL36 was still plagued by the same curve-center driving unpredictability that was already experienced in 2021. Lando Norris raised the same complaint about the current MCL60,
"In downforce we trust"

AR3-GP
AR3-GP
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Joined: 06 Jul 2021, 01:22

Re: 2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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djos wrote:
13 May 2023, 02:14
And I got laughed at for saying the car was deeply flawed! If McLaren fixed this issue, Daniel would not have had his confidence destroyed. If race car drivers can't predict the car behaviour, it's hard for them to trust the car and drive it to the limit, that's just a fact! 😡
Despite the shift to ground-effect design standards for 2022, last season's MCL36 was still plagued by the same curve-center driving unpredictability that was already experienced in 2021. Lando Norris raised the same complaint about the current MCL60,
Lando and Piastri have been close and the car might be flawed but both of them are currently extracting all that it has. Piastri proved he can adapt. Why Daniel could not do that is no longer Mclaren's problem. Their problem is the car is just slow.
A lion must kill its prey.