2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

[ValeVida46]

I thought Toto said that the side pods weren’t the issue.

So you don't recall when he said there were no sacred cows?

In February this year he said they may change. Over 3 months ago
https://www.planetf1.com/news/toto-wolf ... d-changes/


Maybe, just maybe, Mercedes are allowed to change a concept they tried to make work on the basis of exactly what he said?

Throughout last season, we have analysed it back and forth, whether it was right or not and obviously you can see the sidepods are very different to any other car, but we believe that this is not the performance relative part,” Wolff explained to media including PlanetF1.com at the launch of the W14.

“Obviously, there is no such thing as a holy cow here. We are looking at everything and, on the sidepods, this is the first iteration, and when we’re going through the first few races, that’s going to change a little bit.

“But like Mike [Elliott, technical director] said in the launch, [if] you want to change your concept completely then [you’re] making not one step back, but probably two, three – and that’s why we stayed where we are.

“And I love the fact that we are bold, we stayed bold, and we are just continuing to follow what the science says for us

So essentially, he's literally telling you it could change depending on the science of what happens after.

[AR3-GP]

Still zero pod

[ValeVida46]

People on this site has very short memories.

It's selective, and negatively biased. Surprised the mods allow it to continue to be honest.

[ValeVida46]

Still zero pod

How? That looks like a pod to me.
Granted we should wait for more pics on this but it does seem to validate what PZ was saying right?

[Cs98]

No, I want to highlight how meaningless those words were, and point out how silly it was to blindly believe it as so many in these threads did. The "it's not even the problem" sentiment was pervasive, because people listened to words instead of analysing what was happening with the car.

People can analyse independently of statements. I think the struggle to find solutions is the same applied to every single team.

Isolating problems and dealing with them is nothing new. I simply don't get why (some)people week in week out just come here to jump on what was said. It's like a sport within a sport to sharpen knives on media questions to team bosses.

Is this not the forum to expose lies about the technicalities of F1?

[ValeVida46]

No, I want to highlight how meaningless those words were, and point out how silly it was to blindly believe it as so many in these threads did. The "it's not even the problem" sentiment was pervasive, because people listened to words instead of analysing what was happening with the car.

People can analyse independently of statements. I think the struggle to find solutions is the same applied to every single team.

Isolating problems and dealing with them is nothing new. I simply don't get why (some)people week in week out just come here to jump on what was said. It's like a sport within a sport to sharpen knives on media questions to team bosses.

Is this not the forum to expose lies about the technicalities of F1?

Ohhh right, the team threads are here for the purpose of "exposing lies".
I must be in the wrong place.

[mendis]

Still zero pod

Yes. If it was zero when it had one, then this is status quo.

[Cs98]

People can analyse independently of statements. I think the struggle to find solutions is the same applied to every single team.

Isolating problems and dealing with them is nothing new. I simply don't get why (some)people week in week out just come here to jump on what was said. It's like a sport within a sport to sharpen knives on media questions to team bosses.

Is this not the forum to expose lies about the technicalities of F1?

Ohhh right, the team threads are here for the purpose of "exposing lies".
I must be in the wrong place.

That’s not the exclusive purpose. But if a team were to repeatedly tell a non-truth in regards to the technical aspects of the car, I should think “F1technical” would be the website you can talk about it.

Anyways, I made my point. Now I look forward to seeing the performance of the new spec car.

[ValeVida46]

That’s not the exclusive purpose. But if a team were to repeatedly tell a non-truth in regards to the technical aspects of the car, I should think “F1technical” would be the website you can talk about it.

Anyways, I made my point. Now I look forward to seeing the performance of the new spec car.

You literally had Wolf state they would change the pods if the science dictated that in February 2023.
"there are no sacred cows, if it requires a change we will do so according to the data"

At the time it is very plausible the data backed up continuation of the pods. Since then they've had their tests which brought up issues that meant a change was required. A fact backed up by this statement from Elliott after FP1 in Bahrain on the 3rd of March:

Toto already said we’ve got a different bodywork coming; it won't be the same as other people’s and it won’t be the same as we’ve got, it’ll be different.

“It’s part of the normal development. We have got a very different sidepod coming – I say very different, a different sidepod that’s coming. I think Toto said that in the press. But it takes time to bring that. It takes time to make the bits, it takes time to change the bits that go underneath the bodywork to fit, so we’ll bring it as soon as we can,”

If a team gives a concept time to come through given that Budget caps don't allow for a total redesign, they should really be allowed to do so without being called liars. Would you do so on the Ferrari thread for example, as their upgrades missed target and they have their own design path? Where would the technical value be in that?

Because we already have provable statements from the team to state they had to be absolutely sure they were wrong and they would change if data dictated.

A point that's compounded because they had windtunnel issues and actually fired staff because the margin parameters were not met(according to formulaUno). So there is smoke to the fire of why there is confusion surrounding their quandary.

[continuum16]

There is definitely confusion, and between now and 12 months ago I’m sure there are conflicting press releases/interviews with Toto, Eliott, and other Merc staff. I personally don’t see this as deliberate deception, but more of a product of us living in an age where the media and fans want updates on the team’s progress every 5 seconds, and the actual development curve is quite “out of phase” with this. Also, Toto isn’t in the wind tunnel running aero tests, or making CAD models, or fabricating parts. While I’m sure he gets updates from people in the design/testing/fabrication depts., it’s probably outdated within a few days if their concept is in flux. I would expect that’s pretty normal, and that any more involvement would probably come across as micromanagement from Toto.

So when someone asks Toto for an update, I would assume he just tells them what he knows, and is not extrapolating. I suppose that assumption could be wrong but IMO there’s no benefit to doing that. Then, when the drivers or technical leaders are interviewed, they not only have to answer to the best of their ability but also have to consider what Toto said to avoid crossing wires, OR they say what they think is right even if it contradicts what Wolff said. This probably happens multiple times on a race weekend and when you consider that this has been going on for well over a year that’s where the confusion becomes overwhelming. For sure better PR strategy could mitigate this but unless they adopt a policy of radio silence there will be some degree of stepping on each other’s toes.

Regardless, we’ll have a much better read on what Mercedes’ plan is for the short to medium term in about 24-48 hours.

[Farnborough]

I'd certainly not accuse any of the teams of lying, what would be the point of that anyway.

But, and its a big BUT, this sport along with the participants has relentlessly pushed into self promotion, information and viewer involvement, it's extremely niave to not offer competent presentation to that enhanced audience at this point of very high interest.

They, MB, are making a complete pantomime of this whole era, is that intentionally presented or pretty amateur ?

They did make a pantomime camel of a car in performance terms though, so maybe this is entirely appropriate.

[ValeVida46]

But, and its a big BUT, this sport along with the participants has relentlessly pushed into self promotion, information and viewer involvement, it's extremely niave to not offer competent presentation to that enhanced audience at this point of very high interest.

If true, then that is true universally. Not of any 1 specific team.

They, MB, are making a complete pantomime of this whole era, is that intentionally presented or pretty amateur ?
They did make a pantomime camel of a car in performance terms though, so maybe this is entirely appropriate.

Or inappropriate, because to my reckoning that would make the vast majority of teams pantomime camel car makers.
But there's no sport in approaching this thread constructively by certain members as where's the fun in that right?
We have 148 pages of how Toto is terrible and Mercedes don't know arse from elbow, liars and pantomime camel car makers. I believe last years team thread was pretty horrific too. Reading that you'd never guess Mercedes finished third in the constructors standings.

Open season though, as you were Farnborough

[Farnborough]

My point is that they aren't technically incompetent, stupid or any other of the critique levelled at them.

But they are playing, significantly, a detrimental tune that many will pick up and run with, that is in their control.

They state that they're not there to finish 3rd, that's negative of their own making, when they don't win.

Keep making definitive statement as to performance (recently changed to be more moderate) and non technical leads like "we need to bring out the goodness we know is in the car" gives huge scope for the general consensus to be made up to whatever the Internet feels like. That's the reality of a public facing sport today.

Someone there needs to properly get hold of narrative issued on their behalf and feed realistic view to the many that are genuinely interested.

[continuum16]

…

Or inappropriate, because to my reckoning that would make the vast majority of teams pantomime camel car makers.
But there's no sport in approaching this thread constructively by certain members as where's the fun in that right?
We have 148 pages of how Toto is terrible and Mercedes don't know arse from elbow, liars and pantomime camel car makers. I believe last years team thread was pretty horrific too. Reading that you'd never guess Mercedes finished third in the constructors standings.

I would agree 100% with the above statement.

The main thing is the expectation put on the team not only by fans but also themselves. If “anything other than first is a failure” then finishing third must, therefore, be seen as a failure. When a team (or indeed anyone even in daily life) fails to meet its expectations, they can either say “we should have been better” or “we could have been worse.”

IMO comments like the 2023 Bahrain GP was “our most painful day as a team” serve no purpose, because clearly that can’t be true, and only serve to fuel the spiral of media and possibly even internal negativity. I mean, surely that’s not worse tha. Spain 2016, or the day Lauda passed away, or whatever else. It’s so obscene that I find it best to dismiss it because it’s clearly sensationalized.

McLaren has grappled with this expectations problem for a whole decade and continues to do so today. Mercedes has only recently encountered this dilemma for the first time since 2013.

There seems to be an idea that acceptance = complacency in F1. As a result, teams and especially fans more often than not tend to avoid accepting their failures for fear they will be seen as giving up, even though that should not be the case.

I’ve followed other racing series for a long time (longer than F1 even) and while my favorite team hasn’t won titles in a very long time, and I’m not expecting them to *this year* I still believe they could do so again. People (not necessarily people here but the general populous) just need to see things on a longer timeline than 1-2 races.

[ValeVida46]

I would agree 100% with the above statement.

The main thing is the expectation put on the team not only by fans but also themselves. If “anything other than first is a failure” then finishing third must, therefore, be seen as a failure. When a team (or indeed anyone even in daily life) fails to meet its expectations, they can either say “we should have been better” or “we could have been worse.”

IMO comments like the 2023 Bahrain GP was “our most painful day as a team” serve no purpose, because clearly that can’t be true, and only serve to fuel the spiral of media and possibly even internal negativity. I mean, surely that’s not worse tha. Spain 2016, or the day Lauda passed away, or whatever else. It’s so obscene that I find it best to dismiss it because it’s clearly sensationalized.

McLaren has grappled with this expectations problem for a whole decade and continues to do so today. Mercedes has only recently encountered this dilemma for the first time since 2013.

There seems to be an idea that acceptance = complacency in F1. As a result, teams and especially fans more often than not tend to avoid accepting their failures for fear they will be seen as giving up, even though that should not be the case.

I’ve followed other racing series for a long time (longer than F1 even) and while my favorite team hasn’t won titles in a very long time, and I’m not expecting them to *this year* I still believe they could do so again. People (not necessarily people here but the general populous) just need to see things on a longer timeline than 1-2 races.

Of course I think everything needs to be contextualised. Anything taken in microcosm can be amplified to push an agenda, the sidepod thing for example. And agree with your post too. It really is just a natural progression that has ebbed and flowed in the sport and in life since the dawn of time.
When you're out of form and get a microphone planted in front of your face, fans and detractors will live or die on every word uttered. It's a shame but I'd hope that a technical forum would be less responsive to the chaff.
Only it seems just as divisive as social media unfortunately. Also wishing your chosen team luck in finding their from again.

My point is that they aren't technically incompetent, stupid or any other of the critique levelled at them.

But they are playing, significantly, a detrimental tune that many will pick up and run with, that is in their control.

They state that they're not there to finish 3rd, that's negative of their own making, when they don't win.

Keep making definitive statement as to performance (recently changed to be more moderate) and non technical leads like "we need to bring out the goodness we know is in the car" gives huge scope for the general consensus to be made up to whatever the Internet feels like. That's the reality of a public facing sport today.

Someone there needs to properly get hold of narrative issued on their behalf and feed realistic view to the many that are genuinely interested.

Again it is pretty specific and tailored only to this team. How can Mercedes be anymore guilty of a detrimental tune than say, Ferrari? In November Binotto said Ferrari would challenge Red Bull in 2023. You reckon the Ferrari team thread gets even 20% of the flack that this would get if Wolf said that?
When quoting a statement of "bringing the goodness out the car", its pertinent to what is being said about set up.
You have to admit that bagging pole position in Oz and running strongly in one race and then not at another must leave the engineers in a quandry. That would mess with any team. As there are a ton of variables, they need to be mastered and a sweet spot needs to be found.
Like I said in the previous post, when viewed through a negative prism, it's really easy to kick a team.
Constructive criticism is cool but cmon man, you have to admit the stuff that gets posted here verges on really unhealthy.