2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

[proteus]

This works deal, seems to have become some sort of mythical Nirvana all encompassing greatness. It's just no more than, something people cling onto.

A Honda deal almost killed Mclaren. A BMW deal almost killed Sauber and Williams.

See the below interview from Mike Krack:

In his media round in Monaco, he placed particular emphasis on the integration of engine development with chassis design:

"If you look at the engine regulations for the 2026 season and the chassis regulations that will be developed from them, you can see that full integration or at least a high degree of integration with the power unit is needed in order to to develop the chassis suitable for this regulation."

"If you have a working association, the flow of information is much more open, you get data sooner, for example on energy management, the aerodynamic configuration that you have to choose to achieve the right objective. It is a great advantage for this interpretation of the normative".

Also, Sauber won their only race and nearly a title with BMW.

And their money. Big factor was also money.

[AR3-GP]

And RBR won 4 titles with a customer engine. And Williams was regularly getting podiums a decade ago with a customer engine. And Alpine's works engine sucks. Enough with the blanket statements

Red Bull's relationship with Renault was not "customer". The relationship was such that Red Bull got Renault to build them an engine that was compatible with the blown exhaust concept. Renault didn't even official F1 team after 2010. They sold the team. Red Bull was the factory. This would never happen now. Mercedes will do what's best for themselves first.

Williams was getting podiums because the Mercedes had 80-90hp more than everyone else. Look where they are now that PUs are more equal.

You have an F1 expert, and leader of a team that is currently quite a bit of ahead of Mclaren telling you the importance of the PU-chassis integration. What is there left to say? I take Krack's statement with full value and credibility.

The potentially worrying part for Mclaren is that Honda, RBPT, and Audi do not appear to want to supply Mclaren and mostly for reasons related to wanting to focus on themselves. Audi said they focus on themselves. RBPT said they focus on themselves. Honda have already snubbed Mclaren with the AMR announcement.

Having a pure customer relationship is a weakness no matter how much one would not like it to be.

[Ground Effect]

At the moment, at least AMR are beating the Mercedes works team, even though they not only get the PU, but also the rear suspension + gearbox. The frozen engine situation definitely helps, but as long as you do a good job, you can beat a works team. Why do you think Mercedes never agreed to supply Red Bull with an engine?

[SmallSoldier]

And RBR won 4 titles with a customer engine. And Williams was regularly getting podiums a decade ago with a customer engine. And Alpine's works engine sucks. Enough with the blanket statements

Red Bull's relationship with Renault was not "customer". The relationship was such that Red Bull got Renault to build them an engine that was compatible with the blown exhaust concept. Renault didn't even official F1 team after 2010. They sold the team. Red Bull was the factory. This would never happen now. Mercedes will do what's best for themselves first.

Williams was getting podiums because the Mercedes had 80-90hp more than everyone else. Look where they are now that PUs are more equal.

You have an F1 expert, and leader of a team that is currently quite a bit of ahead of Mclaren telling you the importance of the PU-chassis integration. What is there left to say? I take Krack's statement with full value and credibility.

The potentially worrying part for Mclaren is that Honda, RBPT, and Audi do not appear to want to supply Mclaren and mostly for reasons related to wanting to focus on themselves. Audi said they focus on themselves. RBPT said they focus on themselves. Honda have already snubbed Mclaren with the AMR announcement.

Having a pure customer relationship is a weakness no matter how much one would not like it to be.

Not saying his statement is wrong, but you have the Technical head of a Team that just signed a “works deal” hyping the importance of it? What did you expect, for him to say that it doesn’t really matter in this formula?

Are there potential benefits of been a works team? Absolutely… Will that make or break the potential for a WCC opportunity ? Doubt it

All those examples of “Works Teams” having success are based on an era that:

- Had no regulations in terms of what was provided from an engine manufacturer to a customer team, it could very well be 2 completely different engines if they wanted to… Today, that’s not possible
- An era in which budgets weren’t capped, therefore the benefit of an engine works deal wasn’t only the engines themselves (and their integration) but actually the amount of money that engine manufacturer invested on the business… Therefore the positives results were more due to the investment than the engine itself.
- An era where power differences between engine manufacturers was way bigger than what it is today.
- An era with less amount of regulations, not only on the car side, but more importantly in the engine side… To the point that next generations engines could be consider “quasi-spec”.
- There is way more correlation between budgets and results in the last several decades than whether a team was a works team or not… Money was the differentiator in terms of performance.
- There are more examples of “Works Teams” not successful than examples of successful ones (Ferrari, Renault?)

In regards to McLaren, which is what this thread is about… There is a lot that needs to be improved for the Team to challenge for a Championship that won’t be fixed by a “works deal”… When another customer team using the same engine you are using is ahead of you, it’s not the engine that is the problem.

The need to be a works team in order to be successful in today’s F1 is a myth

[MTudor]

At the moment, at least AMR are beating the Mercedes works team, even though they not only get the PU, but also the rear suspension + gearbox. The frozen engine situation definitely helps, but as long as you do a good job, you can beat a works team. Why do you think Mercedes never agreed to supply Red Bull with an engine?

You can beat the work team in a few races,but you can't beat them if both of you are fighting for WC'ships!

[AR3-GP]

The need to be a works team in order to be successful in today’s F1 is a myth

AMR just decided to sever their relationship with Mercedes to become the sole customer and partner of Honda. It baffles me the lengths people go to try and deny the significance, even in the face of rival teams like Red Bull doing the unthinkable, and building their own PU from the ground up just so they would not have to be a customer, while AMR ditched Mercedes so they would no longer have to be a customer. AMR and RB happen to be two of the most ambitious, and more recently successful teams on the grid.... perhaps their decisions are a model for Mclaren to follow.

Aren't you noticing a trend? I'm not saying that Mclaren will be solved by having their own engine partner, but the lack of their own engine supplier and inability to court one is a symptom of systemic issues.

[Ground Effect]

At the moment, at least AMR are beating the Mercedes works team, even though they not only get the PU, but also the rear suspension + gearbox. The frozen engine situation definitely helps, but as long as you do a good job, you can beat a works team. Why do you think Mercedes never agreed to supply Red Bull with an engine?

You can beat the work team in a few races,but you can't beat them if both of you are fighting for WC'ships!

I have a feeling Red Bull would be still leading the Championship as.a Mercedes customer.

[Ground Effect]

The need to be a works team in order to be successful in today’s F1 is a myth

AMR just decided to sever their relationship with Mercedes to become the sole customer and partner of Honda. It baffles me the lengths people go to try and deny the significance, even in the face of rival teams like Red Bull doing the unthinkable, and building their own PU from the ground up just so they would not have to be a customer, while AMR ditched Mercedes so they would no longer have to be a customer. AMR and RB happen to be two of the most ambitious, and more recently successful teams on the grid.... perhaps their decisions are a model for Mclaren to follow.

Aren't you noticing a trend? I'm not saying that Mclaren will be solved by having their own engine partner, but the lack of their own engine supplier and inability to court one is a symptom of systemic issues.

They're definitely positives 100%. Quite frankly, I wish it was McLaren doing the deal. But I also don't see it as the end all be all. Alpine should be in the top 3 and challenging for the title if that was the case. This is their 8th season back as a full works team, they haven't broken into the top 3 in all that time, McLaren have. They've won as many races as McLaren, no pole position, fewer podiums, they've gone on recruitment drive after recruitment drive. But they haven't built a car good enough to win the Championship. McLaren have bigger problems than a works engine.

[AR3-GP]

The need to be a works team in order to be successful in today’s F1 is a myth

AMR just decided to sever their relationship with Mercedes to become the sole customer and partner of Honda. It baffles me the lengths people go to try and deny the significance, even in the face of rival teams like Red Bull doing the unthinkable, and building their own PU from the ground up just so they would not have to be a customer, while AMR ditched Mercedes so they would no longer have to be a customer. AMR and RB happen to be two of the most ambitious, and more recently successful teams on the grid.... perhaps their decisions are a model for Mclaren to follow.

Aren't you noticing a trend? I'm not saying that Mclaren will be solved by having their own engine partner, but the lack of their own engine supplier and inability to court one is a symptom of systemic issues.

They're definitely positives 100%. Quite frankly, I wish it was McLaren doing the deal. But I also don't see it as the end all be all. Alpine should be in the top 3 and challenging for the title if that was the case. This is their 8th season back as a full works team, they haven't broken into the top 3 in all that time, McLaren have. They've won as many races as McLaren, no pole position, fewer podiums, they've gone on recruitment drive after recruitment drive. But they haven't built a car good enough to win the Championship. McLaren have bigger problems than a works engine.

Alpine also have systemic issues. It doesn't matter if you have the horse, and no cart. The point is that once you get to the sharp end of the grid, all you see are teams with works engine programs. It's a symptom of success. Mclaren need to start exhibiting the symptoms of the successful teams. If that means they acquire their own engine partner along the way, it would be a big sign that they are headed in the right direction.

[SmallSoldier]

The need to be a works team in order to be successful in today’s F1 is a myth

AMR just decided to sever their relationship with Mercedes to become the sole customer and partner of Honda. It baffles me the lengths people go to try and deny the significance, even in the face of rival teams like Red Bull doing the unthinkable, and building their own PU from the ground up just so they would not have to be a customer, while AMR ditched Mercedes so they would no longer have to be a customer. AMR and RB happen to be two of the most ambitious, and more recently successful teams on the grid.... perhaps their decisions are a model for Mclaren to follow.

Aren't you noticing a trend? I'm not saying that Mclaren will be solved by having their own engine partner, but the lack of their own engine supplier and inability to court one is a symptom of systemic issues.

The lengths people will go? I mean, I just stated facts for you… We may just have different opinions on the significance of been a “Works Team” or “Customer Team”.

Let’s look at the facts:

- RBR’s success isn’t only a product of been a “works team”, it’s a product of having one of the best (if not the best) aerodynamic team today and one of the biggest budgets in Formula 1 history until the budget cap was implemented, which in itself is a huge advantage over the rest. Their straight line speed (one of the biggest performance differentiators this season) isn’t a product of their engine, but their aerodynamics / chassis.

- AMR’s current success isn’t due to been a works team, it’s happening as a customer team… We will see if their new partnership with Honda will bring them success in 2026, but there is no indication that it will be the case “at this point in time”, it could be the biggest of successes or a big fluke, still to be determined… Their success is also mainly based on been one of the first to copy the RBR aerodynamic concept (it was the green RBR by mid last season) and further evolving it with the help of a few RBR employees who most probably have brought to their team a lot of knowledge on what made the RBR such a good car for several seasons now.

I have not denied that been a works team can be helpful, but saying that the only way to be successful is to become one is what I challenge… In today’s F1 a team can achieve success as a customer because the advantages of been a works team have been handicapped considerably. It baffles me that everyone is putting so much weight on been a works team, when the biggest works teams in Formula 1 (Ferrari and Mercedes) aren’t challenging for a Championship

[Ground Effect]

AMR just decided to sever their relationship with Mercedes to become the sole customer and partner of Honda. It baffles me the lengths people go to try and deny the significance, even in the face of rival teams like Red Bull doing the unthinkable, and building their own PU from the ground up just so they would not have to be a customer, while AMR ditched Mercedes so they would no longer have to be a customer. AMR and RB happen to be two of the most ambitious, and more recently successful teams on the grid.... perhaps their decisions are a model for Mclaren to follow.

Aren't you noticing a trend? I'm not saying that Mclaren will be solved by having their own engine partner, but the lack of their own engine supplier and inability to court one is a symptom of systemic issues.

They're definitely positives 100%. Quite frankly, I wish it was McLaren doing the deal. But I also don't see it as the end all be all. Alpine should be in the top 3 and challenging for the title if that was the case. This is their 8th season back as a full works team, they haven't broken into the top 3 in all that time, McLaren have. They've won as many races as McLaren, no pole position, fewer podiums, they've gone on recruitment drive after recruitment drive. But they haven't built a car good enough to win the Championship. McLaren have bigger problems than a works engine.

Alpine also have systemic issues. It doesn't matter if you have the horse, and no cart. The point is that once you get to the sharp end of the grid, all you see are teams with works engine programs. It's a symptom of success. Mclaren need to start exhibiting the symptoms of the successful teams. If that means they acquire their own engine partner along the way, it would be a big sign that they are headed in the right direction.

Agreed, but as the options are limited, we've got to work with what we have. We know they tried to get a deal done with Audi, spoke to Honda, neither worked out, which I believe, at least with Audi, was the right decision. So obviously, they're making efforts. But part of the ambitious mindset McLaren must have is being determined to fight for the WDC and WCC even without a works deal in place by 2025/26.

[AR3-GP]

The need to be a works team in order to be successful in today’s F1 is a myth

AMR just decided to sever their relationship with Mercedes to become the sole customer and partner of Honda. It baffles me the lengths people go to try and deny the significance, even in the face of rival teams like Red Bull doing the unthinkable, and building their own PU from the ground up just so they would not have to be a customer, while AMR ditched Mercedes so they would no longer have to be a customer. AMR and RB happen to be two of the most ambitious, and more recently successful teams on the grid.... perhaps their decisions are a model for Mclaren to follow.

Aren't you noticing a trend? I'm not saying that Mclaren will be solved by having their own engine partner, but the lack of their own engine supplier and inability to court one is a symptom of systemic issues.

The lengths people will go? I mean, I just stated facts for you… We may just have different opinions on the significance of been a “Works Team” or “Customer Team”.

Let’s look at the facts:

- RBR’s success isn’t only a product of been a “works team”, it’s a product of having one of the best (if not the best) aerodynamic team today and one of the biggest budgets in Formula 1 history until the budget cap was implemented, which in itself is a huge advantage over the rest. Their straight line speed (one of the biggest performance differentiators this season) isn’t a product of their engine, but their aerodynamics / chassis.

- AMR’s current success isn’t due to been a works team, it’s happening as a customer team… We will see if their new partnership with Honda will bring them success in 2026, but there is no indication that it will be the case “at this point in time”, it could be the biggest of successes or a big fluke, still to be determined… Their success is also mainly based on been one of the first to copy the RBR aerodynamic concept (it was the green RBR by mid last season) and further evolving it with the help of a few RBR employees who most probably have brought to their team a lot of knowledge on what made the RBR such a good car for several seasons now.

I have not denied that been a works team can be helpful, but saying that the only way to be successful is to become one is what I challenge… In today’s F1 a team can achieve success as a customer because the advantages of been a works team have been handicapped considerably. It baffles me that everyone is putting so much weight on been a works team, when the biggest works teams in Formula 1 (Ferrari and Mercedes) aren’t challenging for a Championship

1) RB's aero has always been good. Only when they partnered with an engine partner who built a competent engine for them as they wished did they do really well (2010-2013), (2021 onwards)

2) AMR isn't at RB's level and are switching to Honda from 2026 as the final playing card in their ascendancy.

3) As for the rest of your post, I said:

I'm not saying that Mclaren will be solved by having their own engine partner, but the lack of their own engine supplier and inability to court one is a symptom of systemic issues.

[ScottR267]

[SmallSoldier]

3) As for the rest of your post, I said:

I'm not saying that Mclaren will be solved by having their own engine partner, but the lack of their own engine supplier and inability to court one is a symptom of systemic issues.

A systemic issue? No idea what you mean by that in total honesty… What systemic issue?

Inability to court one? Who exactly?… As of a couple days ago there was only one potential “works” deal in place and that was with Honda, which I’m guessing that based on the recent past experience between both brands, it was a very hard deal to pull through… Who else? Audi? They are going with their own car (so no works deal there possible)… Who else?… Which engine manufacturer is out there right now to sign a works deal with?

[continuum16]

Could be another topic since it's not related to 2023, but if McLaren wants to chase a works engine deal they could get into bed with GM/Cadillac, who have expressed interest to enter as a full PU supplier from 2027. Of course, there would have to be a lame-duck season in 2026 with some other engine (probably Mercedes, like 2014) before the full transition. I only bring this up because there is at least an existing partnership between McLaren and Chevrolet in Indycar. Otherwise, as has been noted, options are pretty thin at the moment.