2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

[zibby43]

The point was you are saying P4/P5 is a great result, but Merc by their own standards were having an existential crisis after getting P4/P6 in Bahrain so it shows your standards are quite a bit lower than that of Mercedes. I'm not impressed with P4/P5 and neither is Merc.

No. Read my post again, I said it was good. If they're closing the gap to Aston and increasing the gap to Ferrari, however unimpressed you may be with exalted and unrealistic expectations of what is possible, it is still a good result.
Further, I find it amazing that given the huge gap to 1st and pretty much every statement from a team member saying a challenge to Red Bull is very distant, they must still be held to a higher standard than Ferrari.
Vasseur himself said he expects to challenge Red Bull through the season. Yet looking at the constructors table....it's Mercedes you have issue with?

Good points. Ferrari are constantly let off the hook it seems.

[AR3-GP]

The point was you are saying P4/P5 is a great result, but Merc by their own standards were having an existential crisis after getting P4/P6 in Bahrain so it shows your standards are quite a bit lower than that of Mercedes. I'm not impressed with P4/P5 and neither is Merc.

No. Read my post again, I said it was good. If they're closing the gap to Aston and increasing the gap to Ferrari, however unimpressed you may be with exalted and unrealistic expectations of what is possible, it is still a good result.
Further, I find it amazing that given the huge gap to 1st and pretty much every statement from a team member saying a challenge to Red Bull is very distant, they must still be held to a higher standard than Ferrari.
Vasseur himself said he expects to challenge Red Bull through the season. Yet looking at the constructors table....it's Mercedes you have issue with?

Good points. Ferrari are constantly let off the hook it seems.

Let off the hook? They are criticized even harder than Mercedes every weekend for making zero progress on their tire wear, being slower than last year, and making strategies with a banana. Go have a look in the Scuderia thread.

[zibby43]

No. Read my post again, I said it was good. If they're closing the gap to Aston and increasing the gap to Ferrari, however unimpressed you may be with exalted and unrealistic expectations of what is possible, it is still a good result.
Further, I find it amazing that given the huge gap to 1st and pretty much every statement from a team member saying a challenge to Red Bull is very distant, they must still be held to a higher standard than Ferrari.
Vasseur himself said he expects to challenge Red Bull through the season. Yet looking at the constructors table....it's Mercedes you have issue with?

Good points. Ferrari are constantly let off the hook it seems.

Let off the hook? They are criticized even harder than Mercedes every weekend for making zero progress on their tire wear, being slower than last year, and making strategies with a banana. Go have a look in the Scuderia thread.

[AR3-GP]

The point was you are saying P4/P5 is a great result, but Merc by their own standards were having an existential crisis after getting P4/P6 in Bahrain so it shows your standards are quite a bit lower than that of Mercedes. I'm not impressed with P4/P5 and neither is Merc.

No. Read my post again, I said it was good. If they're closing the gap to Aston and increasing the gap to Ferrari, however unimpressed you may be with exalted and unrealistic expectations of what is possible, it is still a good result.
Further, I find it amazing that given the huge gap to 1st and pretty much every statement from a team member saying a challenge to Red Bull is very distant, they must still be held to a higher standard than Ferrari.
Vasseur himself said he expects to challenge Red Bull through the season. Yet looking at the constructors table....it's Mercedes you have issue with?

Nothing I've said comes even close to how critical the team are of themselves.

[GrizzleBoy]

I don't remember when it happened, but George seems kind of grating these days. To the point where I wouldn't have trusted him to actually give the poace back had he needed to.

[ValeVida46]

Nothing I've said comes even close to how critical the team are of themselves.

That's totally not my point. Teams can be critical of themselves and demand more from themselves too.
They have a 7 time world champion that has a legion of fanatical followers, and managing expectations is what all teams do regularly, especially the larger teams. So when Toto says they had a good result today, it's only reasonable to reflect their current position and the scope they have to climb the ladder. Does this mean Mercedes have lowered their standard? No.
It's unrealistic to expect "silver bullets" The drivers and management have been very clear on this.
They turn up with a large upgrade package to Monaco and only Red Bull outscores them, but you can't find any positives and suggest Lewis "only found one thing" to be happy about, and that it's "odd"...
What were you expecting?

There really isn't any consistency in your criticisms, and with a blindspot for other teams such as Ferrari who find themselves behind 3 teams despite goals and statements of consistently challenging(unfortunately not happened).
However I notice the Ferrari thread is almost completely devoid of criticisms from you. Or do we qualify criticisms based on how harsh the team is on themselves?
To finalise, my point isn't your criticisms, it's that perhaps they could be applied judiciously and evenly for all?

[AR3-GP]

Nothing I've said comes even close to how critical the team are of themselves.

That's totally not my point. Teams can be critical of themselves and demand more from themselves too.
They have a 7 time world champion that has a legion of fanatical followers, and managing expectations is what all teams do regularly, especially the larger teams. So when Toto says they had a good result today, it's only reasonable to reflect their current position and the scope they have to climb the ladder. Does this mean Mercedes have lowered their standard? No.
It's unrealistic to expect "silver bullets" The drivers and management have been very clear on this.
They turn up with a large upgrade package to Monaco and only Red Bull outscores them, but you can't find any positives and suggest Lewis "only found one thing" to be happy about, and that it's "odd"...
What were you expecting?

There really isn't any consistency in your criticisms, and with a blindspot for other teams such as Ferrari who find themselves behind 3 teams despite goals and statements of consistently challenging(unfortunately not happened).
However I notice the Ferrari thread is almost completely devoid of criticisms from you. Or do we qualify criticisms based on how harsh the team is on themselves?
To finalise, my point isn't your criticisms, it's that perhaps they could be applied judiciously and evenly for all?

My only point was that I got the impression of mixed feelings about the upgrade package from Hamilton but that time would tell, but I felt like Hamilton knows right away (as he did in the shakedown in both years). That post was quoted as being too critical and that P4/P5 was a great result. I replied by pointing out that Alpine was ahead which is actually a worse result compared to anything they'd done previously this year. Add in Perez and Stroll doing the bare minimum with the car their teammates finished 1-2 in, and it's really more like P6/P7. The drivers are probably flattering the car.

Time will tell.

[ValeVida46]

My only point was that I got the impression of mixed feelings about the upgrade package from Hamilton but that time would tell, but I felt like Hamilton knows right away (as he did in the shakedown in both years). That post was quoted as being too critical and that P4/P5 was a great result. I replied by pointing out that Alpine was ahead which is actually a worse result compared to anything they'd done previously this year. Add in Perez and Stroll doing the bare minimum with the car their teammates finished 1-2 in, and it's really more like P6/P7. The drivers are probably flattering the car.

Time will tell.

For the 3rd time, I said it was a good result...Good isn't great
And yes, when they outscore their rivals just ahead and just behind it should be considered a good result, given that no team will beat Red Bull to either championship this year.

And to put into perspective, the Alpine result reflected worse on Ferrari who are supposedly "challenging" RB this year. But if one were to go to that thread, it's that you'd express surprise the undercut on Ocon didn't work.
About the extent of it.
Meanwhile, Mercedes drivers are flattering a car (that finished 20 seconds up the road from the Ferrari), it's "odd" Hamilton found something positive, you arent impressed with P4/5, and Hamilton wont hide his dissatisfaction for longer.

The 2 diametrically opposed attitudes towards 2 fairly comparable teams is pretty striking wouldn't you say?
Ferrari get benefit of your surprise, and Mercedes get a list of critique having beaten Ferrari.
Somethings not right there.

[AR3-GP]

My only point was that I got the impression of mixed feelings about the upgrade package from Hamilton but that time would tell, but I felt like Hamilton knows right away (as he did in the shakedown in both years). That post was quoted as being too critical and that P4/P5 was a great result. I replied by pointing out that Alpine was ahead which is actually a worse result compared to anything they'd done previously this year. Add in Perez and Stroll doing the bare minimum with the car their teammates finished 1-2 in, and it's really more like P6/P7. The drivers are probably flattering the car.

Time will tell.

For the 3rd time, I said it was a good result...Good isn't great
And yes, when they outscore their rivals just ahead and just behind it should be considered a good result, given that no team will beat Red Bull to either championship this year.

And to put into perspective, the Alpine result reflected worse on Ferrari who are supposedly "challenging" RB this year. But if one were to go to that thread, it's that you'd express surprise the undercut on Ocon didn't work.
About the extent of it.
Meanwhile, Mercedes drivers are flattering a car (that finished 20 seconds up the road from the Ferrari), it's "odd" Hamilton found something positive, you arent impressed with P4/5, and Hamilton wont hide his dissatisfaction for longer.

The 2 diametrically opposed attitudes towards 2 fairly comparable teams is pretty striking wouldn't you say?
Ferrari get benefit of your surprise, and Mercedes get a list of critique having beaten Ferrari.
Somethings not right there.

In the Ferrari thread I said that they destroyed the inters in one post and then I said Sainz was clumsy in another. It goes without saying they are not on the pace, but they also don't have their upgrade package that is supposed to right the course until Spain. This discussion was started with my comment on what Hamilton said about the Mercedes upgrade package. There will be an opportunity to review Ferrari's upgrades (as well as Mercedes) in Spain.

As for "good vs great", it's a semantical discussion but they are quite similar in my view. It's okay to have a difference of opinion. I didn't say you cannot say it's great. I am just ambivalent. Alpine was ahead and if Stroll and Perez could summon some competency, they would also be ahead. It's great for the team to take a result that's ahead of where the car is on pace, but main concern is the car's pace.

[AeroDynamic]

Interesting that Russell believed he was in the position to control the pace in front of Lewis. Lewis incidently answered that assumption by creating a 10+ second gap on him over the course of the end of the race. It's clear Russell pushes when Lewis is managing and maybe vice versa. But as soon as Lewis showed his real pace, Russell appeared unable to match and stay close.

As for the upgrade itself. Lewis said hes was very pleased with the mechanical upgrade but cannot judge the aero truly until they get to a normal track; Barcelona.

Monaco isn't a true test. With half a new car, I'd say thats a pretty encouraging result for the team given they don't know fully how to optimise it under this new direction.

[DGP123]

Same in Bahrain. If Russell sees an opportunity to take Lewis, he destroys his tyres to make it happen, or goes straight on the radio, to tell the world he’s apparently faster, and that Merc need to act and move him aside.

Russell was poor this weekend. Without the rain, he was nowhere

[f1jcw]

In the Ferrari thread I said that they destroyed the inters in one post and then I said Sainz was clumsy in another. It goes without saying they are not on the pace, but they also don't have their upgrade package that is supposed to right the course until Spain.

I never really get the desire to go into anothers threads and berate them on how well their teams doing, especially if I am a fan of a conquering team. Only felt doing it under exceptional circumstances and the fans of that thread didn't like it being raised. I don't like fans of other teams mocking my team in there own thread so I try and return it

[AR3-GP]

In the Ferrari thread I said that they destroyed the inters in one post and then I said Sainz was clumsy in another. It goes without saying they are not on the pace, but they also don't have their upgrade package that is supposed to right the course until Spain.

I never really get the desire to go into anothers threads and berate them on how well their teams doing, especially if I am a fan of a conquering team. Only felt doing it under exceptional circumstances and the fans of that thread didn't like it being raised. I don't like fans of other teams mocking my team in there own thread so I try and return it

It's a technical forum. The team threads are for posting and discussing what's being said or done by the team.

[Alex_Z]

I don't remember when it happened, but George seems kind of grating these days. To the point where I wouldn't have trusted him to actually give the poace back had he needed to.

Yeah all that posturing on the radio only to be dropped by 11 seconds in 10 laps was embarrassing. I think beating Lewis last year has really inflated his ego. I'm hoping Lewis can lay down a marker from Spain with these new upgrades which should help with his lacklustre qualifying perfomances so far.

[ValeVida46]

In the Ferrari thread I said that they destroyed the inters in one post and then I said Sainz was clumsy in another. It goes without saying they are not on the pace

But Mercedes are not afforded "it goes without saying they are not on the pace". It's not hard to go through the posts and see that it's Mercedes which invokes your criticism, and this was before the upgrade package. Again, not against criticisms, but immediately we have a double standard in how you're applying your critique.

As for "good vs great", it's a semantical discussion but they are quite similar in my view. It's okay to have a difference of opinion. I didn't say you cannot say it's great. I am just ambivalent.

There's a difference between good and great that's not semantical. There's also a difference between someone saying good and great too. It's hardly nuanced, and would just appreciate quoting me accurately rather placing words in my mouth inaccurately.

Alpine was ahead and if Stroll and Perez could summon some competency, they would also be ahead. It's great for the team to take a result that's ahead of where the car is on pace, but main concern is the car's pace.

We can all make excuses as to why results form after the fact. Russell would've been third had he not spun off as he was ahead of Ocon and Hamilton at that point. Russell himself said he had a brain fade moment, and around Monaco that can mean DNF or getting lucky. So again, we have a situation where other teams are given passes for X reason but you hold Mercedes to a different category of critique for the same reasons.
Scrutinise and criticise by all means, I'm raising my objection to the inconsistent application of that with your quotes as examples of that inconsistency.