2023 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

This forum contains threads to discuss teams themselves. Anything not technical about the cars, including restructuring, performances etc belongs here.
hape
hape
2
Joined: 03 Jan 2019, 13:17

Re: 2023 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post

My feelings is, forget this car, it’s not just suspension. Yes it’s fast on one lap, eating its tyres and with an engine performing huge numbers. But in the race on half decent tyres and an engine on a more moderate level it is not fast on any (type of) circuit.

Ferrari seems to have quite an inefficient organization in the budget cap area. They come from a huge organization, spending 3 times as much as in todays area. They have invested huge amounts of money (like the high performance motion simulation together with specialists Dynism). They really invested everything and their mother to be best prepared for the budget cap came into place. Somehow they can’t deliver the same performance for the buck. If they continue this route they will fall behind even further.

User avatar
JordanMugen
85
Joined: 17 Oct 2018, 13:36

Re: 2023 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post

Vinlarr89 wrote:
04 Jun 2023, 17:37
Exactly like Mercedes last year. Don’t know what to do to set the car up correctly, semi competitive one week and miles off the week after.
Does this mean the problem is tyre temperature?

User avatar
codetower
6
Joined: 15 Sep 2020, 16:47

Re: 2023 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post

Shal_Leg16 wrote:
04 Jun 2023, 21:33

You are just oversimplifying his mistakes. What do you mean by took the hit ? Its not like he (and his team of technicians) came up with a planB/alternate way to compete. Instead they just gave up and started talking about next regulation change. But did they learn anything from it ? No. In 2023 history repeated itself. Befor TD39 everything was good, imo just like 2018 they worked out some loopholes with flexy floor thing built entire concept on it and everything was working fine. Come TD39 and that car hasn’t been same ever after. It looks like even they dont know what is the fault and why car behaves like this. No other car is this confusing as Ferrari.
Vanja #66 wrote:
04 Jun 2023, 22:10
codetower wrote:
04 Jun 2023, 20:16
So… I’ve seen here often, it’s been easy and somewhat common to bash on Binotto. He was too soft, too stubborn, made too many mistakes, and so on. But looking back, under his leadership Ferrari managed to get through the engine penalties with the sf90, did a better job with the new regulations than all teams except one with the F175, and managed enough of a correction from the TD39 fiasco to hold onto 2nd in the constructors. I, as a Ferrari fan for a few decades, at least felt we were going in the right direction. Sure, a few bumps… but improvement. I feel that now we are either standing still or going backwards. Mercedes was a broken team last year; Aston was not even close, now they’ve both leapfrogged us. And now even Alpine is on our heels. It just seems the team is more lost now since Mattia’s departure.
As it was mentioned, he was responsible for the design of the engine. It was his responsibility to do whatever he can to keep whatever aspect of its design was targeted by other teams and FIA. You think everything was 100% legal on Mercedes engines? Remember 2013 and Mercedes illegal tyre test with 2013 cars? The one that gave them a massive competitive advantage? Brawn stood up, confronted the FIA and argued they didn't break the rules. FIA crumbled and Mercedes had the advantage in their pocket and this was vital for their 8 WCC efforts.

So with all of that and the embarrassment that was the 2020 season (even with c19 lockdown striking Italy the hardest), what did Ferrari do under his leadership regarding TD39? Nothing. They turned on their backs like puppies and allowed Mercedes to bring them down. If they weren't aware how much it will hurt them, then that's another proof they simply lucked into perfect early-season setup for F1-75. Hard to say what's worse of the two...

The biggest problem for them at this point is that they don't have a TD and they need one ASAP. Cardille is not up to the task clearly, Sanchez is out. No idea who they should bring, but if they don't they can write off the next two seasons already. They should have the decency to release Leclerc and Sainz from their contracts early if they don't bring anyone new for TD any time soon.
Yes, he was responsible,I understand that... and I may be oversimplifying it, but the point I'm trying to make is although the team under his leadership did stumble, and made their mistakes, it seems they were at least able to come back from them... under Binotto. What I meant by taking the hit is that they got the engine penalty, had a horrible year in 2020, then 2021 they were better than 2020. Progress... small, but progress. I feel like this team has had all offseason, and 6 races in plus testing and we seem to be going backwards. There has been no progress, or at least very little compared to their competitors.

I'm not saying he was the next great TD, but I am not convinced of Ferrari under Vasseur. Apologies Vanja and She_leg, not trying to be argumentative, just a very frustrated and very depressed Tifoso today.

User avatar
Andres125sx
166
Joined: 13 Aug 2013, 10:15
Location: Madrid, Spain

Re: 2023 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post

Vanja #66 wrote:
04 Jun 2023, 13:12
Andres125sx wrote:
04 Jun 2023, 12:43
I´ll be glad to hear your theory if you disagree with mine, but please, keep it technical
Ah dear Andres, that's the whole point, there is no need for theories. Data analysts already shown the extent of the problem with the car and the time lost in left handers. Ferrari changed the whole rear end to make sure it's fixed. Would they really do extra job if there was no need for that?
No need for theories in F1? For how long are you watching F1? :P

Data analysis show a problem with left handers. Might you please explain how that data discard right tires out of temperature window exactly? :roll:


They did change gearbox for this and future GPs, so they had to remove the whole rear end anycase, no point keeping the same components if they had any doubt. They´ve failed to repair the car properly in the past, with Lecrerc also, so I guess they didn´t have any intention to repeat the mistake again and replaced everything with a remote posibility to be damaged just to be in the safe side

Xyz22
Xyz22
123
Joined: 16 Feb 2022, 20:05

Re: 2023 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post

The main goal of these upgrades was not to increase performance but to achieve better consistency and a bigger working window.

Result? The car performance was again all over the place

Image

Moreover, they have made 0 improvements on the main weakness (in terms of pure performance) of the car, which is the front end.

There are no words to express how incompetent the Ferrari technical Team is.

User avatar
Vanja #66
1572
Joined: 19 Mar 2012, 16:38

Re: 2023 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post

codetower wrote:
05 Jun 2023, 02:40
Yes, he was responsible,I understand that... and I may be oversimplifying it, but the point I'm trying to make is although the team under his leadership did stumble, and made their mistakes, it seems they were at least able to come back from them... under Binotto. What I meant by taking the hit is that they got the engine penalty, had a horrible year in 2020, then 2021 they were better than 2020. Progress... small, but progress. I feel like this team has had all offseason, and 6 races in plus testing and we seem to be going backwards. There has been no progress, or at least very little compared to their competitors.

I'm not saying he was the next great TD, but I am not convinced of Ferrari under Vasseur. Apologies Vanja and She_leg, not trying to be argumentative, just a very frustrated and very depressed Tifoso today.
Is the PU really sorted now? Last year in the race both RB and Ferrari used max df rear wing and both usually reached the same top speed, first laps got to 298 and at the end it was 305 kmh without DRS. The engine was detuned later in the season for reliability.

This year Ferrari used smaller rear wing and still the top speed was the same as RB, around 310kmh without DRS (because of better corner exit in T14 this year). Ferrari's new chassis is lower drag than F1-75 and combined with smaller RW they should have been a lot faster than RB if PU is again performing at maximum. It doesn't look like it does.

And, again, 23 car was developed under Binotto, seeing how it failed to match F1-75 from the start it really doesn't give a good impression.
AeroGimli.x

And they call it a stall. A STALL!

#DwarvesAreNaturalSprinters
#BlessYouLaddie

Andi76
Andi76
431
Joined: 03 Feb 2021, 20:19

Re: Ferrari SF23

Post

scuderiabrandon wrote:
04 Jun 2023, 01:56
organic wrote:
03 Jun 2023, 21:07
Carlos mentioned in the post-quali press conference that the update was meant to improve their low and medium speed performance more than anything else and they've felt an improvement in that regard. And the noises from Ferrari generally seemed positive about the upgrade.

But he also downplayed the amount of pure performance it is adding. He talks about it bringing a step into a different direction/ opening up a different window of operation
Were lacking in the high speed, this is where we need focusing, were fairly competitive everywhere else.
To be honest, yesterday didn't look any better than before. Of course, it has to be said that Mercedes didn't look good in Monte Carlo either, just as almost every team didn't really look good in the first race with a major update. Most teams even needed several races to get their update working and Ferrari may also need a few races. However, I am still convinced that Ferrari has a big problem with the tyres, because you can see that the variations with the soft compound are not as big as with the other compounds. Like i have explained already in recent comments the basic grip of a compound is determined by its hysteresis - the ability to absorb the energy that goes into the tire. The rubber and its chemical components form a compound that is visco-elastic, with a deformability somewhere between a liquid and a solid. The more toward a liquid it tends to be, the softer the compound. A softer compound will tend to have a higher hysteresis, although this also depends on its chemical composition. The rate at which a compound responds to an increase in load is not consistent. There is a delay in how it reacts to the loads because of the elasticity of the material. So if the frequency of the load is too high, it prevents the compound from returning to a state of equilibrium between loads. It then stiffens the compound and the compound will not be able to absorb as much energy and loses some of its grippieness. So the compound effectively becomes harder at high frequency input loads and softer at lower ones. A too low tire temperature has the same effect. There is an inverse relationship on the effect on the softness of a compound between the input frequencies of the loads and the temperature of the compound. At low frequencies between 10 Hz and 105 Hz, an increase in frequency by a factor of 10 causes the compound to harden like a drop in temperature from 8 to 9 degrees Celsius.The higher the hysteresis, the more heat is generated (because the tyre must absorb more energy). The ideal running temperature of the tread at which the hysteresis of the compound is at its maximum is just slightly above that at which the compound hardens. The "base" softness/hardness of the compound - before the influence of load frequencies and of course temperatures must be considered, is called modulus. Low modulus = soft and high modulus = hard. A low-modulus compound will generate more chemical grip where the rubber of the contact patch bonds with the surface of the track. It will also develop more mechanical grip whereby the unsymmetrical way in which the rubber drapes itself over the rough surface creates a delayed reaction that tries to pull the rubber back to euqilibrium.This force is pulling in the opposite direction to that imposed by the cornering loads and thereby increases grip. Chemical grip generally occurs between frequencies of 106-109 Hz, mechanical grip predominates between 102-106 Hz. Tyre temperature has a lot to do with the amount of energy it has to absorb, although the track temperature itself plays a big role. The temperature at which an F1 tire typically reaches its "vitreous transition" state, and thus its ideal state, is between 85(C5) and 140 degrees(C1), depending on the compound. I think when you consider all this it becomes clear why it is often seen that a team can't cope on one day (like Mercedes on Friday) and as soon as the temperature changes (like on Sunday) their performance is suddenly very good. The temperature at which all compounds work is 115 degrees Celsius. And here I think is the real secret of Red Bull and their suspension, not the anti-dive which all teams use anyway to a certain percentage (although I do think that the percentage and the interaction between rear and front suspension play a big role, so anti-dive and anti-squat). Red Bull is the only team that always manages to keep the tires at 115 degrees under all conditions at every track. Many teams work with very stiff suspensions, which increases the contact frequencies, with the consequences explained above, the compound hardens and you become slower in the course of a stint, or at least only less faster despite decreasing weight. Ferrari's problems are also here, I think, because since the TD039 they use a stiffer set-up. But the curing of the compound by high contact frequencies changes the tyre accordingly. And then you could be caught in a dilemma that makes it incredibly difficult and this would also explain why soft compounds work better than harder ones. It would also explain Ferrari's performance inconsistency and problems in the race and above all why they can't find a solution (although I'd like to emphasize that we'll have to wait and see, because other teams also needed several races to get their updates up and running). It is often underestimated that the tyres are the most important component of a car. They transmit all the forces and if they don't work you can lose seconds. I remember in 1997 Ferrari only gained 2.5 seconds in a few months by improving the interaction between tyres and suspension. Everyone thought it was the new aerodynamic parts, but in fact it was because they had learned to match the car and tyres perfectly. And I don't know if the fluctuating performance can actually be explained by aerodynamics that are similar in their basic features to those of 2022 and functioned perfectly up to TD039. I don't want to say that there are no problems here, that would be wrong for sure, because just the changeable driving behavior points to problems in this area (Tyre Squirt, or problems with Strake Vortex or Floor Edge Vortex at certain vehicle conditions, whereby I think that these could become elliptical and thereby their vector field could change). But the actual fluctuating performance I think has its origin in the tyres and the suspension, just like Red Bull's consistency in the race, on every track and in all conditions have their origin in a perfect interaction between tyres and suspension and an absolutely perfect understanding of this interaction and what happens with the tyres. That's the only way I can explain what's been happening to Ferrari over the last 12 months.

User avatar
sucof
20
Joined: 23 Nov 2012, 12:15

Re: Ferrari SF23

Post

Andi76 wrote:
05 Jun 2023, 11:38
scuderiabrandon wrote:
04 Jun 2023, 01:56
organic wrote:
03 Jun 2023, 21:07
Carlos mentioned in the post-quali press conference that the update was meant to improve their low and medium speed performance more than anything else and they've felt an improvement in that regard. And the noises from Ferrari generally seemed positive about the upgrade.

But he also downplayed the amount of pure performance it is adding. He talks about it bringing a step into a different direction/ opening up a different window of operation
Were lacking in the high speed, this is where we need focusing, were fairly competitive everywhere else.
To be honest, yesterday didn't look any better than before. Of course, it has to be said that Mercedes didn't look good in Monte Carlo either, just as almost every team didn't really look good in the first race with a major update. Most teams even needed several races to get their update working and Ferrari may also need a few races. However, I am still convinced that Ferrari has a big problem with the tyres, because you can see that the variations with the soft compound are not as big as with the other compounds. Like i have explained already in recent comments the basic grip of a compound is determined by its hysteresis - the ability to absorb the energy that goes into the tire. The rubber and its chemical components form a compound that is visco-elastic, with a deformability somewhere between a liquid and a solid. The more toward a liquid it tends to be, the softer the compound. A softer compound will tend to have a higher hysteresis, although this also depends on its chemical composition. The rate at which a compound responds to an increase in load is not consistent. There is a delay in how it reacts to the loads because of the elasticity of the material. So if the frequency of the load is too high, it prevents the compound from returning to a state of equilibrium between loads. It then stiffens the compound and the compound will not be able to absorb as much energy and loses some of its grippieness. So the compound effectively becomes harder at high frequency input loads and softer at lower ones. A too low tire temperature has the same effect. There is an inverse relationship on the effect on the softness of a compound between the input frequencies of the loads and the temperature of the compound. At low frequencies between 10 Hz and 105 Hz, an increase in frequency by a factor of 10 causes the compound to harden like a drop in temperature from 8 to 9 degrees Celsius.The higher the hysteresis, the more heat is generated (because the tyre must absorb more energy). The ideal running temperature of the tread at which the hysteresis of the compound is at its maximum is just slightly above that at which the compound hardens. The "base" softness/hardness of the compound - before the influence of load frequencies and of course temperatures must be considered, is called modulus. Low modulus = soft and high modulus = hard. A low-modulus compound will generate more chemical grip where the rubber of the contact patch bonds with the surface of the track. It will also develop more mechanical grip whereby the unsymmetrical way in which the rubber drapes itself over the rough surface creates a delayed reaction that tries to pull the rubber back to euqilibrium.This force is pulling in the opposite direction to that imposed by the cornering loads and thereby increases grip. Chemical grip generally occurs between frequencies of 106-109 Hz, mechanical grip predominates between 102-106 Hz. Tyre temperature has a lot to do with the amount of energy it has to absorb, although the track temperature itself plays a big role. The temperature at which an F1 tire typically reaches its "vitreous transition" state, and thus its ideal state, is between 85(C5) and 140 degrees(C1), depending on the compound. I think when you consider all this it becomes clear why it is often seen that a team can't cope on one day (like Mercedes on Friday) and as soon as the temperature changes (like on Sunday) their performance is suddenly very good. The temperature at which all compounds work is 115 degrees Celsius. And here I think is the real secret of Red Bull and their suspension, not the anti-dive which all teams use anyway to a certain percentage (although I do think that the percentage and the interaction between rear and front suspension play a big role, so anti-dive and anti-squat). Red Bull is the only team that always manages to keep the tires at 115 degrees under all conditions at every track. Many teams work with very stiff suspensions, which increases the contact frequencies, with the consequences explained above, the compound hardens and you become slower in the course of a stint, or at least only less faster despite decreasing weight. Ferrari's problems are also here, I think, because since the TD039 they use a stiffer set-up. But the curing of the compound by high contact frequencies changes the tyre accordingly. And then you could be caught in a dilemma that makes it incredibly difficult and this would also explain why soft compounds work better than harder ones. It would also explain Ferrari's performance inconsistency and problems in the race and above all why they can't find a solution (although I'd like to emphasize that we'll have to wait and see, because other teams also needed several races to get their updates up and running). It is often underestimated that the tyres are the most important component of a car. They transmit all the forces and if they don't work you can lose seconds. I remember in 1997 Ferrari only gained 2.5 seconds in a few months by improving the interaction between tyres and suspension. Everyone thought it was the new aerodynamic parts, but in fact it was because they had learned to match the car and tyres perfectly. And I don't know if the fluctuating performance can actually be explained by aerodynamics that are similar in their basic features to those of 2022 and functioned perfectly up to TD039. I don't want to say that there are no problems here, that would be wrong for sure, because just the changeable driving behavior points to problems in this area (Tyre Squirt, or problems with Strake Vortex or Floor Edge Vortex at certain vehicle conditions, whereby I think that these could become elliptical and thereby their vector field could change). But the actual fluctuating performance I think has its origin in the tyres and the suspension, just like Red Bull's consistency in the race, on every track and in all conditions have their origin in a perfect interaction between tyres and suspension and an absolutely perfect understanding of this interaction and what happens with the tyres. That's the only way I can explain what's been happening to Ferrari over the last 12 months.
Great write!
Do you think that they have acceleration sensors in the tyres, or in the wheels?
Studying those along with the infrared cameras and suspension movements, + vehicle dynamics could be eye opening.

Andi76
Andi76
431
Joined: 03 Feb 2021, 20:19

Re: Ferrari SF23

Post

sucof wrote:
05 Jun 2023, 18:11

Great write!
Do you think that they have acceleration sensors in the tyres, or in the wheels?
Studying those along with the infrared cameras and suspension movements, + vehicle dynamics could be eye opening.
I do not think that acceleration sensors are generally used in tires or wheels. Unfortunately, since the end of the tire war between Michelin and Bridgestone, Formula 1 has taken a step backwards in this respect. At the time of the tire war, Ferrari, for example, had its own "Tyre Dynamics" department, which was subordinate to the Vehicle Dynamics department and in which 8-10 engineers were concerned only with the tyres and everything that had to do with them. The tyres were then an important part of the design process and fully integrated into it. There was even extensive analysis done on the different road surfaces and road conditions to best match the vehicle and suspension to them. After the end of the tyre war, almost all teams disbanded their Tyre Dynamics departments because many of the bosses (at Ferrari Montezemolo) thought that they were now superfluous since it was the same for everyone anyway. Red Bull kept this department while most of the other teams just assigned one or two engineers to create a model for the simulations and do a few simulations. Compared to before, this was like night and day and a lot of knowledge has been lost over the years. And despite their obvious importance, much of the tyre business is neglected in F1. For example, as far as the interaction between tyres and the various road surfaces is concerned and their influence on the compound, where there is certainly a lot of potential, today's knowledge in F1 is frighteningly low, as I know from someone with first-hand experience. Therefore, I can not imagine that they use acceleration sensors in tyres or wheels.

AR3-GP
AR3-GP
365
Joined: 06 Jul 2021, 01:22

Re: Ferrari SF23

Post

The sensor is in the dampers more or less.
A lion must kill its prey.

JPower
JPower
43
Joined: 23 Feb 2021, 05:06

Re: 2023 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post

Xyz22 wrote:
05 Jun 2023, 09:51
The main goal of these upgrades was not to increase performance but to achieve better consistency and a bigger working window.

Result? The car performance was again all over the place

https://storage.googleapis.com/fp-media ... 62x662.jpg

Moreover, they have made 0 improvements on the main weakness (in terms of pure performance) of the car, which is the front end.

There are no words to express how incompetent the Ferrari technical Team is.
Haven't been able to post in months but finally found some free time to read.

Given that the drivers have no clue how the car is going to work stint to stint at this point, they both should be given more credit than they have been thus far this season.

Just extremely disappointing. I'm in agreement that the suspension is clearly a problem because Haas has the exact same issues as the SF-23. What is more disappointing is that it seems the Haas at least generates downforce comparable to its place on the grid. The SF-23 can't match the downforce of the Red Bull or Mercedes, and probably not the Alpine either.

User avatar
sucof
20
Joined: 23 Nov 2012, 12:15

Re: Ferrari SF23

Post

Andi76 wrote:
05 Jun 2023, 19:47
sucof wrote:
05 Jun 2023, 18:11

Great write!
Do you think that they have acceleration sensors in the tyres, or in the wheels?
Studying those along with the infrared cameras and suspension movements, + vehicle dynamics could be eye opening.
I do not think that acceleration sensors are generally used in tires or wheels. Unfortunately, since the end of the tire war between Michelin and Bridgestone, Formula 1 has taken a step backwards in this respect. At the time of the tire war, Ferrari, for example, had its own "Tyre Dynamics" department, which was subordinate to the Vehicle Dynamics department and in which 8-10 engineers were concerned only with the tyres and everything that had to do with them. The tyres were then an important part of the design process and fully integrated into it. There was even extensive analysis done on the different road surfaces and road conditions to best match the vehicle and suspension to them. After the end of the tyre war, almost all teams disbanded their Tyre Dynamics departments because many of the bosses (at Ferrari Montezemolo) thought that they were now superfluous since it was the same for everyone anyway. Red Bull kept this department while most of the other teams just assigned one or two engineers to create a model for the simulations and do a few simulations. Compared to before, this was like night and day and a lot of knowledge has been lost over the years. And despite their obvious importance, much of the tyre business is neglected in F1. For example, as far as the interaction between tyres and the various road surfaces is concerned and their influence on the compound, where there is certainly a lot of potential, today's knowledge in F1 is frighteningly low, as I know from someone with first-hand experience. Therefore, I can not imagine that they use acceleration sensors in tyres or wheels.
Hm, that was a very silly decision then, and how interesting is that RB kept them and look at their dominance now...
I mean, if a tyre is a huge differentiator, and it is, why makes it sense to ignore that whole piece of the puzzle, just because the tyres are the same? One might argue, that if the tyres are the same, controlling them makes even more sense than before...
Perhaps Ferrari shall rehire the "old" guys from that department.

User avatar
sucof
20
Joined: 23 Nov 2012, 12:15

Re: Ferrari SF23

Post

AR3-GP wrote:
05 Jun 2023, 19:53
The sensor is in the dampers more or less.
Thanks for the info.
I argue, that if you want to understand this problem, understanding what the tyres experience exactly, compared to the other sensors and car parts, is the key.
In my work I often have to solve complicated and new problems. What I learned is, that if you can not solve a problem, than 99% is that you are simply do not know all the facts. If you know them perfectly, the solution will be super easy, it is in the data.
The recent interviews with Ferrari people shows, they do not know what is the problem. In my book this means: they do not have enough and good information / data. Without it, you might never know the solution, however hard you try.

Sevach
Sevach
1081
Joined: 07 Jun 2012, 17:00

Re: 2023 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post

Vanja #66 wrote:
05 Jun 2023, 11:24

And, again, 23 car was developed under Binotto, seeing how it failed to match F1-75 from the start it really doesn't give a good impression.
I agree, i don't know how anyone can miss Binotto after this "parting gift".
The tech department he left behind is a mess, they have no idea what to make with this car... the department needs to be rebuilt from the ground up and then the car.

User avatar
organic
1055
Joined: 08 Jan 2022, 02:24
Location: Cambridge, UK

Re: 2023 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post

Fuel corrected laptime chart looking like a non-fuel corrected laptime chart :?

Image

Source: brake F1 on Twitter