2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

[OO7]

I think overall merc will be pleased that they have effectively cleared ferrari and closed the gap to am on an unfavourable track. Lets see what happens with austria and uk. Is AM bringing anything to silverstone?

Unfavorable track? Lewis finished on podium last year (7 seconds behind winner) and George on 4th (12 seconds behind). Ferrari was never a threat since 2nd half of last year. Ferrari sporadically shows one lap speed, but has worse degradation in races. It's actually AM (Alonso) that has been ahead for most part this year and that was the case in Canada also. The consistent theme from Mercedes has been that their situation is way worse than it actually is and then they are making leaps and bounds progress! It's understandable why they do it as they have a corporate to please. Yesterday's result on the track wasn't any different to last year. It was Sainz ahead last year and Alonso this year. If Alonso wouldn't have got stuck behind Lewis, he probably would have opened a bigger gap and pushed Max a bit more.

It's difficult to compare 2022 with 2023. Last year there was a full Safety Car on lap 49, at which point Hamilton was 20 seconds behind Verstappen. Yesterday the cooler conditions worked against Red Bull.

[mkay]

Sounds like Merc were only about 1 tenth or so behind Aston this weekend based on the race pace. Not that bad. Could get interesting if Merc can add more rear downforce.

Russell had a great recovery I guess, but that unforced error was quite the rookie mistake.

I think a lot of it was management from Alonso - who is extremely clever in race/tyre management.

Alonso was told to lift and coast in the 3rd stint. Hamilton also pushed very hard in the first 10 laps of the stint.

You cannot overtake another car if the gap is only one tenth. I’d say it was way more than that. The track suited the AM more. Slow speed corners Hamilton said he was getting destroyed by both Max and Alonso.

Fair point, but my guess is that the gap wasn't more than say 2 tenths (otherwise Hamilton would have finished >10 seconds behind Alonso despite the latter fuel saving). The back-to-back DRS zones are very powerful and hard to get away from. Mercedes was definitely more competitive on the mediums than the hards and the early SC pitstop likely played to AMR/Alonso's strengths as it meant Hamilton had to stretch the hards longer.

Looking at telemetry, Hamilton was consistently losing out at the hairpin under braking and corner exit. Despite that his Sector 1 time was extremely competitive.

[AR3-GP]

Sounds like Merc were only about 1 tenth or so behind Aston this weekend based on the race pace. Not that bad. Could get interesting if Merc can add more rear downforce.

Russell had a great recovery I guess, but that unforced error was quite the rookie mistake.



Alonso was told to lift and coast in the 3rd stint. Hamilton also pushed very hard in the first 10 laps of the stint.

You cannot overtake another car if the gap is only one tenth. I’d say it was way more than that. The track suited the AM more. Slow speed corners Hamilton said he was getting destroyed by both Max and Alonso.

Fair point, but my guess is that the gap wasn't more than say 2 tenths (otherwise Hamilton would have finished >10 seconds behind Alonso despite the latter fuel saving). The back-to-back DRS zones are very powerful and hard to get away from. Mercedes was definitely more competitive on the mediums than the hards and the early SC pitstop likely played to AMR/Alonso's strengths as it meant Hamilton had to stretch the hards longer.

Looking at telemetry, Hamilton was consistently losing out at the hairpin under braking and corner exit. Despite that his Sector 1 time was extremely competitive.

Fernando actually lost Hamilton's DRS in the first stint. then he just drove back into it and followed in the dirty air, until he was able to pass in the second stint. Then he pulled out of DRS range anyway, and had better tires at the end.

Normally when you can do it, it requires a considerable pace advantage. Fernando immediately had to get into the lift and coast after he passed Lewis. My impression is that Fernando could have won the race. RB had tire temp issues.


It remains to be seen if these are just circuit specific trends which would have been there without any upgrades from either team.

[cplchanb]

I think overall merc will be pleased that they have effectively cleared ferrari and closed the gap to am on an unfavourable track. Lets see what happens with austria and uk. Is AM bringing anything to silverstone?

Unfavorable track? Lewis finished on podium last year (7 seconds behind winner) and George on 4th (12 seconds behind). Ferrari was never a threat since 2nd half of last year. Ferrari sporadically shows one lap speed, but has worse degradation in races. It's actually AM (Alonso) that has been ahead for most part this year and that was the case in Canada also. The consistent theme from Mercedes has been that their situation is way worse than it actually is and then they are making leaps and bounds progress! It's understandable why they do it as they have a corporate to please. Yesterday's result on the track wasn't any different to last year. It was Sainz ahead last year and Alonso this year. If Alonso wouldn't have got stuck behind Lewis, he probably would have opened a bigger gap and pushed Max a bit more.

It's difficult to compare 2022 with 2023. Last year there was a full Safety Car on lap 49, at which point Hamilton was 20 seconds behind Verstappen. Yesterday the cooler conditions worked against Red Bull.

Ham and wolf said it themselves. They are bad at slow speed corners and already came into this race knowing that this is not a favorable track. It's different from previous years since their engine won't save them

[Luscion]

Hearing Toto say he thinks they can win at Silverstone, which is not something he usually says, makes it seem like these Silverstone upgrades are going to be quite big. I'm cautiously optimistic

[Mchamilton]

Hearing Toto say he thinks they can win at Silverstone, which is not something he usually says, makes it seem like these Silverstone upgrades are going to be quite big. I'm cautiously optimistic

Well let's say it how it actually is. He was asked to name the most likely track for a win. He didn't just come out and say they will win there on merit.

[Jambier]

According to AMuS, Mercedes will bring major upgrade to Silverstone.
With another upgrade package to before the summer break.

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... gp-kanada/

I don’t understand how Mercedes can develop much more than the rest of the field

Last year already they did that, but with budget cap it is strange

Hamilton said they need to focus on 2024 and I agree.

They have now to switch everything to 2024 like Red Bull is.

[mkay]

You cannot overtake another car if the gap is only one tenth. I’d say it was way more than that. The track suited the AM more. Slow speed corners Hamilton said he was getting destroyed by both Max and Alonso.

Fair point, but my guess is that the gap wasn't more than say 2 tenths (otherwise Hamilton would have finished >10 seconds behind Alonso despite the latter fuel saving). The back-to-back DRS zones are very powerful and hard to get away from. Mercedes was definitely more competitive on the mediums than the hards and the early SC pitstop likely played to AMR/Alonso's strengths as it meant Hamilton had to stretch the hards longer.

Looking at telemetry, Hamilton was consistently losing out at the hairpin under braking and corner exit. Despite that his Sector 1 time was extremely competitive.

Fernando actually lost Hamilton's DRS in the first stint. then he just drove back into it and followed in the dirty air, until he was able to pass in the second stint. Then he pulled out of DRS range anyway, and had better tires at the end.

Normally when you can do it, it requires a considerable pace advantage. Fernando immediately had to get into the lift and coast after he passed Lewis. My impression is that Fernando could have won the race. RB had tire temp issues.


It remains to be seen if these are just circuit specific trends which would have been there without any upgrades from either team.

Not the right thread to discuss, but I doubt Alonso could have won.

Dirty air effect is minimal at Montreal due to lack of long duration corners as we saw with several multi-car DRS trains.

AMR was faster and more comfortable on all compounds relative to Mercedes. Alonso could have probably pulled a very competitive 1-stop which I doubt Mercedes could have done as it really didn't like the hard tyre.

Hamilton lost ~4.7s in 18 laps to Alonso after being passed which is about 0.275s/lap. Sounds about right to me. Gap was probably less on the mediums. I don't factor in the lift and coast as he would have gotten either a pace advance from pushing harder (consuming more fuel) or a weight advantage from having put less fuel in at the outset.

[shady]

Wolff - Oxidation on the brakes was too high, they have O2 sensors on the brakes - Is the standard practice in F1, and when did occur?

[Farnborough]

Wolff - Oxidation on the brakes was too high, they have O2 sensors on the brakes - Is the standard practice in F1, and when did occur?

Don't think they monitor in this respect.

It's more a description of what happened in that, the brake material has an upper limit in temperature above which oxidation occurs. Once past critical the disc material starts to disappear much faster with traditional signal that wear is too high....long pedal, problem with bias front to rear, etc.....ultimately the disc will wear far enough that it fails (remember here with LH & NR) when LH exploded his left rear on approach to final chicane, that after being warned to cool brakes and temp sensors indication of critical !

[AR3-GP]

Fair point, but my guess is that the gap wasn't more than say 2 tenths (otherwise Hamilton would have finished >10 seconds behind Alonso despite the latter fuel saving). The back-to-back DRS zones are very powerful and hard to get away from. Mercedes was definitely more competitive on the mediums than the hards and the early SC pitstop likely played to AMR/Alonso's strengths as it meant Hamilton had to stretch the hards longer.

Looking at telemetry, Hamilton was consistently losing out at the hairpin under braking and corner exit. Despite that his Sector 1 time was extremely competitive.

Fernando actually lost Hamilton's DRS in the first stint. then he just drove back into it and followed in the dirty air, until he was able to pass in the second stint. Then he pulled out of DRS range anyway, and had better tires at the end.

Normally when you can do it, it requires a considerable pace advantage. Fernando immediately had to get into the lift and coast after he passed Lewis. My impression is that Fernando could have won the race. RB had tire temp issues.


It remains to be seen if these are just circuit specific trends which would have been there without any upgrades from either team.

Not the right thread to discuss, but I doubt Alonso could have won.

Dirty air effect is minimal at Montreal due to lack of long duration corners as we saw with several multi-car DRS trains.

AMR was faster and more comfortable on all compounds relative to Mercedes. Alonso could have probably pulled a very competitive 1-stop which I doubt Mercedes could have done as it really didn't like the hard tyre.

Hamilton lost ~4.7s in 18 laps to Alonso after being passed which is about 0.275s/lap. Sounds about right to me. Gap was probably less on the mediums. I don't factor in the lift and coast as he would have gotten either a pace advance from pushing harder (consuming more fuel) or a weight advantage from having put less fuel in at the outset.

He wasn’t underfueled and there wasn’t actually anything wrong or unusual. They only suspected it, and thus told him to lift and coast. He lost a considerable amount of race time due to this. This track suited AMR well. As in Barcelona is suited merc well.

Both teams are in situation where track specific characteristics dictate who is faster.

[napoleon1981]

According to AMuS, Mercedes will bring major upgrade to Silverstone.
With another upgrade package to before the summer break.

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... gp-kanada/

I don’t understand how Mercedes can develop much more than the rest of the field

Last year already they did that, but with budget cap it is strange

Hamilton said they need to focus on 2024 and I agree.

They have now to switch everything to 2024 like Red Bull is.

I dont understand it either. I was going to hold judgement until the 2022 cost cap results were published. Has anyone seen those yet? Summer break?

[ali623]

According to AMuS, Mercedes will bring major upgrade to Silverstone.
With another upgrade package to before the summer break.

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... gp-kanada/

I don’t understand how Mercedes can develop much more than the rest of the field

Last year already they did that, but with budget cap it is strange

Hamilton said they need to focus on 2024 and I agree.

They have now to switch everything to 2024 like Red Bull is.

I dont understand it either. I was going to hold judgement until the 2022 cost cap results were published. Has anyone seen those yet? Summer break?

It was around Sep/Oct last year I think? So presumably the same this year for the 2022 results. There were rumours that more teams were over in 2022, it could get pretty messy.

[Stu]

Oh I cannot wait….

Back onto the team, and updates; I’m not sure that there will be any further updates as big as the last one (which included suspension (both visible and not), pods and floor. Obvious updates would be wing profiles (and we saw some dissimilarities between LH & GR in Canada), maintaining correlation between WT/test-rig, sim (both predictive & DIL) and track are where the biggest gains can now be made.
A sensible strategy would be to polish for this year (cap restrictions are re-formulated soon) & rework for next year.

[littlebigcat]

According to AMuS, Mercedes will bring major upgrade to Silverstone.
With another upgrade package to before the summer break.

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... gp-kanada/

I don’t understand how Mercedes can develop much more than the rest of the field

Last year already they did that, but with budget cap it is strange

Hamilton said they need to focus on 2024 and I agree.

They have now to switch everything to 2024 like Red Bull is.

I dont understand it either. I was going to hold judgement until the 2022 cost cap results were published. Has anyone seen those yet? Summer break?

2022 accounts are submitted to the FIA for auditing as well as projected 2023 spend at the end of Q1. The aye audited in Q2 for the report to come in Q3.

I’m not sure Mercedes have actually brought more upgrades than the usually would. Because they appear drastic people think they must cost more.

And they are likely concentrating on 2024, this is stuff that’s been in the pipeline for a while.