2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

[ValeVida46]

Pretty sure that Ferrari and Aston have now raced a new floor(Miami and Montreal), which will be the most expensive to produce and develop. So I guess there's that.
All three teams have also revised their sidepods, the sensationalised change from zero to sidepod does not automatically mean Mercedes have spent more in this area.
All 3 teams have also revised their front and rear wings, and Mercedes have made a front suspension upgrade.

However Ferrari are said to have a front and rear suspension update for the next couple of races, which was meant to debut at Imola/Barca but has yet to make an appearance.
Vassuer himself says to expect an update every race from here on out.
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/vasse ... /10473602/

Might be a good idea to start a thread listing all the teams updates. Saves spill over into team threads with isolated who-spent-how-much-on-what guesswork.

[AR3-GP]

Pretty sure that Ferrari and Aston have now raced a new floor(Miami and Montreal), which will be the most expensive to produce and develop. So I guess there's that.
All three teams have also revised their sidepods, the sensationalised change from zero to sidepod does not automatically mean Mercedes have spent more in this area.
All 3 teams have also revised their front and rear wings, and Mercedes have made a front suspension upgrade.

However Ferrari are said to have a front and rear suspension update for the next couple of races, which was meant to debut at Imola/Barca but has yet to make an appearance.
Vassuer himself says to expect an update every race from here on out.
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/vasse ... /10473602/

Might be a good idea to start a thread listing all the teams updates. Saves spill over into team threads with isolated who-spent-how-much-on-what guesswork.

I think it's quite silly to speculate on whether or not teams are overspending. The teams have way more insight into how much they can afford to spend than we do.

[ValeVida46]

I think it's quite silly to speculate on whether or not teams are overspending. The teams have way more insight into how much they can afford to spend than we do.

Agreed, which is maybe why a thread listing each teams update will give perspective as to who's done what.
As outlined in my previous post, Mercedes may have the biggest visual change (Sidepods) which may be misinterpreted by some as the most expensive change.
When the most plausible is that sidepod updates(Ferrari Merc AM) require the same ballpark CFD time, staffing hours and materials. Not identical by any stretch, but within comparative terms.
The other largely unaddressed point is that they are for all intents and purposes still running a very close variant of last years W13 floor on the updated so called (might even have been harvested to re-use) "W14B" As depicted in this photo kindly supplied by Nicholas in the W14 thread via autojournal:

[AR3-GP]

I think it's quite silly to speculate on whether or not teams are overspending. The teams have way more insight into how much they can afford to spend than we do.

Agreed, which is maybe why a thread listing each teams update will give perspective as to who's done what.
As outlined in my previous post, Mercedes may have the biggest visual change (Sidepods) which may be misinterpreted by some as the most expensive change.
When the most plausible is that sidepod updates(Ferrari Merc AM) require the same ballpark CFD time, staffing hours and materials. Not identical by any stretch, but within comparative terms.
The other largely unaddressed point is that they are for all intents and purposes still running a very close variant of last years W13 floor on the updated so called (might even have been harvested to re-use) "W14B" As depicted in this photo kindly supplied by Nicholas in the W14 thread via autojournal:

We have little insight into the processes and efficiencies of each team or the amount of WT hours that go into a specific part for each team. Subjects like this are just rumor and speculation. Even "counting parts" doesn't work.

[cplchanb]

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/merc ... /10485427/

seems to me that the merc sleeping dragon may finally have reawakened. If their correlations are now correct and they can go full steam ahead with development they may be able to pinch Max by the summer break.

[stonehenge]

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/merc ... /10485427/

seems to me that the merc sleeping dragon may finally have reawakened. If their correlations are now correct and they can go full steam ahead with development they may be able to pinch Max by the summer break.

Listening to the AMuS podcast, Michael Schmidt said that a Mercedes engineer told him off the record that they are one upgrade away from challenging for wins. I think it's true that Mercedes hasn't really developed that much since the start of these new regs. First was the bouncing, then correlation issues. If (and I think we still need to reserve some doubt) it's true that the new platform is predictable and correlates to their sim in ways that it hasn't for a year and a half (like Toto said) then I think you are right that Mercedes are about to really ramp up development for the first time in these regs. Very excited to see the next few races, especially Silverstone. It could give us a good sense of how close the second half of the season could get.

[chrisc90]

Its another big jump to make. Your looking half a second of race pace to be at a place where your challenging Max in the RB for wins. Alonso your probably about .250. No idea with Ferrari as we really haven't seen any representative running at the front with them since their upgrades. As someone said/tweeted in the Canada thread. The pace of the Ferrari - had they been at the front, probably would have had a different looking podium.

Red Bull are effectively a update behind everyone else given Ferrari, Mercedes and AMR (and others behind like Alpine and Williams) have brought relatively big upgrades to the track, so the cars behind are effectively against a minor tweaked RB car we seen at the start of the season (I believe the engine cover was brought by RB??)

Its certainly a interesting year to watch with the upgrades and pace.

[cplchanb]

some food for thought.... in 2015 when newey went to design boats... RB crapped out...
in 2022 when allison went to design boats... merc crapped out.... where will these 2 teams be once N and A decide to retire...

[mkay]

some food for thought.... in 2015 when newey went to design boats... RB crapped out...
in 2022 when allison went to design boats... merc crapped out.... where will these 2 teams be once N and A decide to retire...

Pure coincidence. Allison isn't even close to being as good or influential as Newey.

As for Merc upgrades, they need more downforce, sure, but they need efficient downforce. So much free time to be gained that way, particularly considering the Mercedes PU is underpowered (particularly on the ERS side of things) relative to RBPT / Ferrari.

[zibby43]

Its another big jump to make. Your looking half a second of race pace to be at a place where your challenging Max in the RB for wins. Alonso your probably about .250. No idea with Ferrari as we really haven't seen any representative running at the front with them since their upgrades. As someone said/tweeted in the Canada thread. The pace of the Ferrari - had they been at the front, probably would have had a different looking podium.

Red Bull are effectively a update behind everyone else given Ferrari, Mercedes and AMR (and others behind like Alpine and Williams) have brought relatively big upgrades to the track, so the cars behind are effectively against a minor tweaked RB car we seen at the start of the season (I believe the engine cover was brought by RB??)

Its certainly a interesting year to watch with the upgrades and pace.

The gap to RB in the race in Canada was not 5 tenths. Closer to half that.

[DGP123]

But Canada wasn’t representative of the actual gap they have over AM/Merc. Christ, if the gap was only 0.25s, I’d be fully erect. RB struggled this weekend, but the gap will be bigger in Austria.

It’s also an assumption that RB will just stagnate now, that Horner stating everything is focused on next year, means RB are now sitting ducks, if Merc bring one more upgrade. Just delusional.

Every Merc fan is desperate for the gap to close, but challenging for any kind of win, by Silverstone, is more in hope, than expectation. I can see it possibly happening by season end, like last season, when RB’s titles are wrapped up, and motivation and focus is firmly on next year.

[ValeVida46]

We have little insight into the processes and efficiencies of each team or the amount of WT hours that go into a specific part for each team. Subjects like this are just rumor and speculation. Even "counting parts" doesn't work.

They don't operate in a vacuum to the other. We know in many instances, teams use the same suppliers for all sorts of materials, machinery and maintenance. We know staffing costs will be fairly equal now too due to the budget cap.
I'd say burden of proof here rests with those that say it isn't the case.
So while it is a speculative subject, the variance between every team developing and producing an update will not be disconnected from the other. And certain things hold true regardless of any minor discrepancies, this is not 2016 be damned and spend 250m+ anymore.

For a clear example, Aston Martin showed up with a new floor. It's a largely unseen part that has the biggest investment requirement because it demands the most resources as it's the platform everything is built upon and the single biggest generator of efficient downforce. Ferrari? New floor, pods and wings and slightly updated diffuser.
As a direct comparison, I posted a picture displaying the W13 and W14 floors, which aside from a couple of slashes and hacks appears to be a Frankensteined carry over (@Stu too..)

The floor being the most important part of the present (and previous) Formula dictates a few things resource wise. It will take a large chunk of CFD/WT/Financial resources to produce and develop because of that fact. We have a host of quotes from all sorts of F1 team members specifically saying this:
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/alpin ... /10307932/

Mercedes have yet to actually show a new floor, as I'm of the view that the W13 floor on display last year and the W14B floor seen at Monaco show they have markings of previous car(W13) with indentations and overlay update additions to the W14. The diffuser is very much still launch spec W13 too. As outlined by RSZ10 on the W14 thread.

viewtopic.php?p=1141207&f=12#p1141207

So sure, "counting parts" doesn't work perfectly. But it does give a good insight into where the money is going and where the teams themselves feel they need improvements.
The last bit on this is that I do wonder if Mercedes have not updated the floor(specifically by bringing a new one) because their hands are tied with having to rearrange the packaging and seating position of the present car, itself a carry over of zeropod compromises.

[zibby43]

But Canada wasn’t representative of the actual gap they have over AM/Merc. Christ, if the gap was only 0.25s, I’d be fully erect. RB struggled this weekend, but the gap will be bigger in Austria.

It’s also an assumption that RB will just stagnate now, that Horner stating everything is focused on next year, means RB are now sitting ducks, if Merc bring one more upgrade. Just delusional.

Every Merc fan is desperate for the gap to close, but challenging for any kind of win, by Silverstone, is more in hope, than expectation. I can see it possibly happening by season end, like last season, when RB’s titles are wrapped up, and motivation and focus is firmly on next year.

RB struggled, but this track was ill-suited for the Merc, which was getting crushed in slow speed and traction zones.

The cooler temps made it harder for the Merc to get the Hard tires working. So I think any relative struggles may offset.

[AR3-GP]

To understand what is noise and what is a trend requires sampling of a large dataset.

[Just_a_fan]

To understand what is noise and what is a trend requires sampling of a large dataset.

Data will accumulate over the next few races. BY the end of the season, we'll know whether Mercedes have turned the corner and are/can be competitive on merit.